Do you believe being gay is a choice

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Ace Tomato Co.

If anybody on this board thinks they know enough about behavioral genetics to determine the "cause" of homosexuality, please be kind enough to inform the worldwide scientific community concerning this amazing discovery.

That's TIC, by the way. The truth is that NOBODY understands what ultimately determines/drives/causes sexual preference. End of story.

The alleged mystery seems to me wholly inconsistent with the moral certitude of those who would deny gays the right to marry or be members in good standing of their religion. I assume you're one of those.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by pelagius

And this was exactly Arch's and Creekster point. They were both arguing that given the lack of nuance in SU's original poll question that there are some people along the spectrum that do choose even if the vast majority don't. It is a poorly written poll question. And Arch I think was objecting to that, but not the basic idea that the best empirical evidence suggests that for the vast majority it is not a choice.

I'll stick up for SU here. Sexual orientation is clearly not a choice for the vast majority of people. Even if there are rare exceptions, that minor caveat does not mean it isn't a fair question.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I respect Tex for taking the position (setting aside how untenable it is) that sexual preference is a choice. He knows that position is essential for him and others with his views to take unless they are to abandon any pretence of being tolerant.

Did I say that?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Uterine environment and stuff like that, as far as I've read. I think the overwhelming evidence is that the most important environmental factors are prenatal.

Aha... Yes, I am familiar with that research. I misunderstood Archaea's comment.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Sexual orientation is clearly not a choice for the vast majority of people. Even if there are rare exceptions, that minor caveat does not mean it isn't a fair question.

I suppose that is fair enough but to me minor caveats are important. I'm about probabilities. I think the most common bigotry is Bayes Rule bigotry and I am pretty sure SU attends those meetings.

[Ace Tomato Co.]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The alleged mystery seems to me wholly inconsistent with the moral certitude of those who would deny gays the right to marry or be members in good standing of their religion. I assume you're one of those.

You assumed wrong...my brother is gay, and my views on the subject would probably be considered liberal by many with the "moral certitude" you mentioned.

My comment was wholly confined to the topic of the determination of sexual preference. I believe we could have a less strident & perhaps more productive discourse on all aspects of homosexuality if everyone would be willing to admit that we just don't fully understand what "causes" sexual preference.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by pelagius

I suppose that is fair enough but to me minor caveats are important. I'm about probabilities. I think the most common bigotry is the Bayes Rule bigotry and I am pretty sure SU attends those meetings.

Suppose the poll was worded slightly differently ("Do you believe that SSA is a choice for the vast majority of gays?"). Would that really make that much of a difference in the outcome? Or the point that SU is most likely trying to make?

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Suppose the poll was worded slightly differently ("Do you believe that SSA is a choice for the vast majority of gays?"). Would that really make that much of a difference in the outcome? Or the point that SU is most likely trying to make?

I can't believe you didn't even like my Bayes Rules joke. It would for me (although I didn't answer the poll and usually don't in general). I would have went from a "I can't answer that question because I don't know what it means" to a "strong No it not a choice or at least NO, I believe it is a low probability that it is a choice." Did it matter for anyone else? I don't know except maybe Creekster and Arch.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Ace Tomato Co.

My comment was wholly confined to the topic of the determination of sexual preference. I believe we could have a less strident & perhaps more productive discourse on all aspects of homosexuality if everyone would be willing to admit that we just don't fully understand what "causes" sexual preference.

While pinpointing the exact "cause" of SSA is elusive, I think there is plenty of evidence that it is not a simple choice.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by pelagius

I can't believe you didn't even like my Bayes Rules joke.

Sorry. It's late I guess. Nice job.

Originally Posted by pelagius

It would for me (although I didn't answer the poll and usually don't in general). I would have went from a "I can't answer that questions because I don't know what it means" to a "strong No it not a choice or at least NO, I believe it is a low probability that it is a choice." Did it matter for anyone else? I don't know except maybe Creekster and Arch.

Meh. We engineers are accustomed to rounding off our numbers.