I've thought long and hard about Prop. 8

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Absolutely. Will definitely be in attendance. Going to buy tickets there.

If you do attend, let's meet up for a bit beforehand and talk about gay marriage.

I don't want to talk to you about gay marriage. Last time I discussed a controversial topic with someone in person he yelled the f-word at me.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I don't want to talk to you about gay marriage. Last time I discussed a controversial topic with someone in person he yelled the f-word at me.

You must have been talking to IndyCoug. He used that same word towards me today.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

You must have been talking to IndyCoug. He used that same word towards me today.

No, I was talking to a ute about Collie's post-game remarks. I told him that I couldn't understand why he was getting so worked up about something a kid said over the radio in Utah. He then said that as a member of the church he was embarrassed by Collie's remarks, and I told him that was a ridiculous statement, and if he wanted to fret about how fb players are representing the church he should concern himself more with the pre-game remarks made by what's his name on the Utah team. That's when he shouted the f-word at me and hung up the phone. I extended the olive branch a few days later, but admittedly the friendship has remained strained every since the incident.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

No, I was talking to a ute about Collie's post-game remarks. I told him that I couldn't understand why he was getting so worked up about something a kid said over the radio in Utah. He then said that as a member of the church he was embarrassed by Collie's remarks, and I told him that was a ridiculous statement, and if he wanted to fret about how fb players are representing the church he should concern himself more with the pre-game remarks made by what's his name on the Utah team. That's when he shouted the f-word at me and hung up the phone. I extended the olive branch a few days later, but admittedly the friendship has remained strained every since the incident.

The closest you and I have ever come to arguing in person is deciding which Delta Devil cheerleader was the funkiest.

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I have thought about this. But it goes against my conscience. This one just doesnt pass the sniff test for me.

I figure that of all the things we do wrong in life, sincerely followings ones conscience (but incorrectly so), will not be a huge deal.

Remember, I am not preventing anyone from doing what they think is right. I am not out campaigning against Prop 8. And I certainly am not calling people in their homes trying to pressure them. I am simply staying on the sidelines during this possession. I will get back in the game after the next first down. Admittedly not a valiant approach, but it is the best I can do on this one, since I am conflicted.

As a procedural comment, I dont dig the ward calling me to encourage me to follow the Prophet. I dont want calls at the end of the year reminding me to obey the word of wisdom or to forgive others, either. Once it is spoken at Church, in GC, and in the Ensign, that is good enough. Don't call me and get me to sign a list.

I couldn't say this better myself, it is so similar to how I feel about this issue. Well said DDD.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I have thought about this. But it goes against my conscience. This one just doesnt pass the sniff test for me.

I figure that of all the things we do wrong in life, sincerely followings ones conscience (but incorrectly so), will not be a huge deal.

Remember, I am not preventing anyone from doing what they think is right. I am not out campaigning against Prop 8. And I certainly am not calling people in their homes trying to pressure them. I am simply staying on the sidelines during this possession. I will get back in the game after the next first down. Admittedly not a valiant approach, but it is the best I can do on this one, since I am conflicted.

As a procedural comment, I dont dig the ward calling me to encourage me to follow the Prophet. I dont want calls at the end of the year reminding me to obey the word of wisdom or to forgive others, either. Once it is spoken at Church, in GC, and in the Ensign, that is good enough. Don't call me and get me to sign a list.

BDB, on a side note, you going to UW?

I thought about this, and I disagree. You've already promised to follow church leadership, now you're backing out and saying you know better. I actually do think that's a big deal, a really big deal. You made a promise.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I thought about this, and I disagree. You've already promised to follow church leadership, now you're backing out and saying you know better. I actually do think that's a big deal, a really big deal. You made a promise.

A few things that you seem to keep misunderstanding:

1. I have never said I know better. I keep saying that I do not know enough. So I am not going to act until I know more....or at the very least until I can feel a spiritual peace and then act on faith.

2. I have never once promised to follow Church leadership. To what exactly are you referring? When did I make this promise? When did you?

We sustain our leaders. That is not a promise to obey every thing they say. It is simply a sustaining. It is also recognizing the FP as prophets, seers, and revelators....which I definitely do. At no time do we claim that these men cannot make mistakes or are perfect.

The Gospel requires much from all of us. You sustain the prophet. He has counseled to not delay marriage. Why are you delaying marriage? Probably because you dont want to get married until it feels right. yet you promised to obey.....there are some who would say that delaying marriage is a big deal...a really big deal.

If you are doing any sinning in your life, you are violating that which you promised not to do. I dont see this Prop 8 as much different than any other "sin" of omission. I dont even see it as a sin. As you stated, the Church isnt even organizing it. And they are not lobbying me. So it seems that we would all agree that this is all purely voluntary.

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

We sustain our leaders. That is not a promise to obey every thing they say. It is simply a sustaining. It is also recognizing the FP as prophets, seers, and revelators....which I definitely do. At no time do we claim that these men cannot make mistakes or are perfect.

Yep. If opposition to gay marriage has become a fundamental, core belief of our religion, then the Brethren would add a question about it to the temple recommend interview.

Until that happens, nobody who opposes Proposition 8 is being asked to give up full membership in the Church. Maybe it's those who think this issue is a required component of being a good Church member who are "missing the mark" here.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

Yep. If opposition to gay marriage has become a fundamental, core belief of our religion, then the Brethren would add a question about it to the temple recommend interview.

Until that happens, nobody who opposes Proposition 8 is being asked to give up full membership in the Church. Maybe it's those who think this issue is a required component of being a good Church member who are "missing the mark" here.

BDB's post raises another issue altogether.....I guess there is the notion that as members of the Church, we have promised to simply obey all Church leaders. Or perhaps the important ones? I don't know....we sustain all our leaders...so when a crazy EQP calls you up and asks you to help move, you are backing out of a promise if you choose to not help move?

I do not necessarily lump BDB into that group...or even imply that BDB is part of that camp. In fairness, she has not had a chance to clarify, so I do not want to cast her comments in a false light. Just saying that her post raises the interesting issue.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

Yep. If opposition to gay marriage has become a fundamental, core belief of our religion, then the Brethren would add a question about it to the temple recommend interview.

Until that happens, nobody who opposes Proposition 8 is being asked to give up full membership in the Church. Maybe it's those who think this issue is a required component of being a good Church member who are "missing the mark" here.

Seems to me that the church can tell me that in order to belong as a member i have to believe in (1) the divinity of Jesus Christ; and (2) that priesthood power was restored, including keys of continuing revelation, through joseph smith. Other than that, i don't see what the church can tell me i have to believe exactly. Obviously, the church can discipline and revoke membership where conduct is not in keeping with church teachings, or is harmful to the image of the church, etc (i have no problem with that). however, that the church, or its members, would expect me to believe in anything other than (1) or (2), just because the leaders that i support and sustain say so, is offensive to me as a man of "accomplishment" and "intellect" that the church seems so happy to have in its membership roles as long as they are followers of what is expected.