The Divine Institution of Marriage

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

As much as SU's appeal to Mussolini was over the top, the desire to turn control of one's decisions over to another, "to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us" (Foucault, 1983, p. xiii) is fascist. It is also, I think, Oedipal.

All of a sudden, homosexuality's relationship to the Oedipal makes sense.

It wasn't over the top. Intense longing and nostalgia for the past, a sense of self steeped in a highly mythologized past, a chauvenistic sense that only those sharing a common heritage are elect in some sense, a welcoming of authoritarianism as a means to achieving a highly idealized society in conformance with the ultra conservative vision, a sacrificing even of offspring to maintenance of the greater authority (of course, since one's whole sense of self derives from the greater authority), are all hallmarks of fascism.

This is why "Islamofascism" is a very precise epithet. I have no doubt that if America were a Mormon theocracy the September Six would have been shot and buried in a common grave and we'd all be risking our lives and liberty right now. Fascism is really the oldest, and most enduring form of authoritarianism. You are seeing a re-emergence of it right now in Russia. Tragically, Solghenytzin turned out not to be a lover of liberty but a fascist (fascism and communism get along like cats and dogs, which makes a lot of sense, but that's a subject for another day). Fascism is what is holding China together right now, and its dark impulses are now being stirred by the pagentry of the Chinese Olympics.

It isn't a coincidence that the LDS Conference Center looks like it was designed by Alber Speer.

See Downfall for a popular primer on the allure and effects of fascim. If Mormonism suffered its Gotterdamerung I'm sure many would choose to be immolated with the greater authority.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

It wasn't over the top. Intense longing and nostalgia for the past, a sense of self steeped in a highly mythologized past, a chauvenistic sense that only those sharing a common heritage are elect in some sense, a welcoming of authoritarianism as a means to achieving a highly idealized society in conformance with the ultra conservative vision, a sacrificing even of offspring to maintenance of the greater authority (of course, since one's whole sense of self derives from the greater authority), are all hallmarks of fascism.

This is why "Islamofascism" is a very precise epithet. I have no doubt that if America were a Mormon theocracy the September Six would have been shot and buried in a common grave and we'd all be risking our lives and liberty right now. Fascism is really the oldest, and most enduring form of authoritarianism. You are seeing a re-emergence of it right now in Russia. Tragically, Solghenytzin turned out not to be a lover of liberty but a fascist (fascism and communism get along like cats and dogs, which makes a lot of sense, but that's a subject for another day). Fascism is what is holding China together right now, and its dark impulses are now being stirred by the pagentry of the Chinese Olympics.

It isn't a coincidence that the LDS Conference Center looks like it was designed by Alber Speer.

See Downfall for a popular primer on the allure and effects of fascim. If Mormonism suffered its Gotterdamerung I'm sure many would choose to be immolated with the greater authority.

TIC

[CardiacCoug]

"As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility. "

Isn't this section from the statement basically saying that individual Church members have a right to abstain from campaigning for Proposition 8 and they shouldn't be hassled by other members for this? That's how I read it.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

"As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility. "

Isn't this section from the statement basically saying that individual Church members have a right to abstain from campaigning for Proposition 8 and they shouldn't be hassled by other members for this? That's how I read it.

Yes. Or at least this is how I read it, too.

In that spirit, I do sincerely apologize if I have not been civil during this discussion....Indy, Tex, BDB. Sorry. It is nothing personal against any of you, of course. I messed up. No excuses.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

With all the time and research going into these Prop 8 communications, I have noticed a suspicious absence of any data on the effect of homosexual marriage in Massachusetts...where it has been legal now for several years.

In fact, the only reference to Mass. has been the misleading adoption issue.

Does anybody know if, as some have claimed here and elsewhere, children in Mass public schools are now being indoctrinated with homosexuality? Has there been a rise of teens coming out of the closet? Has society in Mass. crumbled? What exactly has happened there that we can safely assume will also happen in California and elsewhere?

this was my thought as i read through this bulletin. I've been to Mass. since marrital rights were extended to all people, and i was there before.

i could tell no discrenible difference. then again, i guess i didn't go into their schools to hear all of the homosexual propoganda being shoved down the throats of the children that the bulletin predicts. that's a snide comment because i know that isn't what the church is really saying, but it's not far from the truth the church is arguing with this parade of horribles they have presented regarding the divine institution of marriage.


a good friend of mine who worked for the Catholic Charities, and they confirmed to me that ddd is right on the reason for them not doing adoptions.

also, i think that SU is right that the elephant in the room is not being addressed. the church is a bit passive aggressive with this issue - they talk about sin, but never come out and say that all of these homosexuals and lesbians are dirty sinners. that's what they want to say, but they also want to make statements about compassion and tolerance (watered way way way down, though)!

i don't think that any gay member of the church, or gay right's group, is seriously thinking that they can get the government to force gay temple marriages. that is absurd.

the parade of horribles argument is much too speculative for me and nothing in that letter has made me change my mind.

As for the letter from the First Presidency, here is a quote: "We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage."

The use of the words "all you can" "to assure" "best efforts are required" make me think the church wants to mandate this effort, but just won't come out and say it.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

A serious discussion with you? Do you have a link pointing me to one in which you have engaged?

I am waiting for you to drop another "fag" bomb on the group this morning. I am sure your dad would be proud.

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Yes. Or at least this is how I read it, too.

In that spirit, I do sincerely apologize if I have not been civil during this discussion....Indy, Tex, BDB. Sorry. It is nothing personal against any of you, of course. I messed up. No excuses.

The "fag bomb" was not intended as an actual slur against you. It was just a joke given the topic of that particular thread and the "lather" comments.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

"As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility. "

Isn't this section from the statement basically saying that individual Church members have a right to abstain from campaigning for Proposition 8 and they shouldn't be hassled by other members for this? That's how I read it.

My hope is that is what they think. but, it does say "level of involvement" which makes me think that the church won't accept no involvement as a response to their efforts.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The "fag bomb" was not intended as an actual slur against you. It was just a joke given the topic of that particular thread and the "lather" comments.

bull shit, indy. you're a homophobe but don't want to admit it. it was very distasteful.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

bull shit, indy. you're a homophobe but don't want to admit it. it was very distasteful.

Piss off, you Ute wanker.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Piss off, you Ute wanker.

nice job handling the truth. you're like my 7 year old.