How many true churches are there?

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Come on, you don't think the Archilochus quote is intelligent?

I hear what you're saying, but in fairness to my devout friends, fusnik's game is to play both sides of the fence, the objective being to tease, even arouse and bait. What I see them saying is that fusnik doesn't bear the indicia of someone who genuinely believes in Mormonism. Related to that, they say that he isn't treating what they see as sacred things with sufficient seriousness and respect, baiting as he is. I can't really argue with any of that. Personally, if fusnik really doesn't believe in it, I think he'd be happier just being genuine about it. Then he could be forthright in his critique and no one could attack him for his beliefs, so long as he didn't disrespect others'. But playing both sides of the fence you open yourself up to this kind of criticism.

My apologies. The quote was not only intelligent, but explains nicely the struggle to conduct meaningful dialogue on faith with those who are devout. I don't know whether Fus is sincere or just trolling, but I think it's amusing to see that with just the slightest provocation, people start rolling up into prickly little hedgehog balls.

Robin's experience with the Church sounds quite similar to my own. At some point I realized that I just didn't belong. I often tell my wife that while I don't believe that the Church is true, I don't discount the possibility that it could be true. But I add that even if it were true, It's not something that I really want to be a part of. God may indeed be playing a cosmic game of hide-and-seek with us, but it's a game that I don't enjoy and one that I choose not play.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

My apologies. The quote was not only intelligent, but explains nicely the struggle to conduct meaningful dialogue on faith with those who are devout. I don't know whether Fus is sincere or just trolling, but I think it's amusing to see that with just the slightest provocation, people start rolling up into prickly little hedgehog balls.

Robin's experience with the Church sounds quite similar to my own. At some point I realized that I just didn't belong. I often tell my wife that while I don't believe that the Church is true, I don't discount the possibility that it could be true. But I add that even if it were true, It's not something that I really want to be a part of. God may indeed be playing a cosmic game of hide-and-seek with us, but it's a game that I don't enjoy and one that I choose not play.

Why when dogma is questioned, is trolling the first thing that comes to mind?

I always found it odd in the LDS community the vitriol associated with thought outside the mainstream. I always found it weird that people in the LDS get offended when different points of view are presented.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

My apologies. The quote was not only intelligent, but explains nicely the struggle to conduct meaningful dialogue on faith with those who are devout. I don't know whether Fus is sincere or just trolling, but I think it's amusing to see that with just the slightest provocation, people start rolling up into prickly little hedgehog balls.

Robin's experience with the Church sounds quite similar to my own. At some point I realized that I just didn't belong. I often tell my wife that while I don't believe that the Church is true, I don't discount the possibility that it could be true. But I add that even if it were true, It's not something that I really want to be a part of. God may indeed be playing a cosmic game of hide-and-seek with us, but it's a game that I don't enjoy and one that I choose not play.

Actually, everybody was rather pleasant and willing to opine on his questions at first. The fact that these answers brought more questions and more drilling from Fussy is no reason to disdain him. The man has to find answers to his questions.

But, UtahDan's point remains valid. If these are sincere questions, he should work them out either by himself or with ecclisastical leaders. As long as he can answer all of the temple recommend questions in the right way, I have no problem with the man. If he is lying and still going to the temple and about to get married there....well that is very unfortunate indeed.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Why when dogma is questioned, is trolling the first thing that comes to mind?

I always found it odd in the LDS community the vitriol associated with thought outside the mainstream. I always found it weird that people in the LDS get offended when different points of view are presented.

Perhaps it is because you are considered the biggest troll on cougarboard.

Not that I care so much. I am considered somewhat of a troll myself.

I think some people think of you as the 4 year old kid who does nothing but ask questions. Why this, why that. Some people have a limit as to how many questions they are willing to entertain.

For me, I have my own limit when it comes to people bashing the church. I told Robin that if he was going to call me and just bash the church, to not bother, because I wasn't interested in listening. So he stopped bashing the church when he talked to me.

Not that you are bashing the church. But I just point out that people have their limits.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Perhaps it is because you are considered the biggest troll on cougarboard.

Not that I care so much. I am considered somewhat of a troll myself.

I think some people think of you as the 4 year old kid who does nothing but ask questions. Why this, why that. Some people have a limit as to how many questions they are willing to entertain.

For me, I have my own limit when it comes to people bashing the church. I told Robin that if he was going to call me and just bash the church, to not bother, because I wasn't interested in listening. So he stopped bashing the church when he talked to me.

Not that you are bashing the church. But I just point out that people have their limits.

I always thought the tone of my posts here was drastically different than the other place, obviously my skills as a writer have failed me in a community I enjoy.

I have been 100% sincere and open here, just like most who participate with frequency. It's easy to tell the difference between a Mike Waters post here and on the board, just like it's easy to tell the difference between a Seattle Ute and a Catblue post.

I guess my questions, aimed to get different points of view on points of the gospel I find interesting, lead to the assumption that I am a fence sitting, liar. My apologies.

I honestly think there is something more to the gospel, church history, the temple ceremony, and beliefs we, as active members, all hold dear to our hearts, I guess I am searching for a kindred spirit to talk about certain things, Oh Dan, Where Art Thou?

[MikeWaters]

Dan stretches in both directions. He encompasses the range from scary liberal to scary devout.

I think most of those critical with some of your posts would put you more in the "scary liberal" category.

Hence Dan is more likely to get a receptive audience. And he often couches his posts in terms of "I have a strong testimony of the gospel and the restored church."

If you want to keep your audience, sometimes you have to reassure them that you aren't dancing between the sheets with the Tanners.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

I honestly think there is something more to the gospel, church history, the temple ceremony, and beliefs we, as active members, all hold dear to our hearts, I guess I am searching for a kindred spirit to talk about certain things, Oh Dan, Where Art Thou?

Of course there is more, only a fool would think the gospel today has reached the glass ceiling of its evolution. But the fact of the matter is several prophets have advised the masses not to fret over the trivia of what is to come. What I see Fus doing in his 'troll' posts is not fretting, but rather piquing his curiosity. Some are willing to entertain his ideas, while others say it's a waste of time. Although I rarely add to your 'apostate' threads Fus, I enjoy reading them. Honestly I don't follow the same train of thought as you, but I do find my own curiosities being raised from yours.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Perhaps it is because you are considered the biggest troll on cougarboard.

Not that I care so much. I am considered somewhat of a troll myself.

I think some people think of you as the 4 year old kid who does nothing but ask questions. Why this, why that. Some people have a limit as to how many questions they are willing to entertain.

For me, I have my own limit when it comes to people bashing the church. I told Robin that if he was going to call me and just bash the church, to not bother, because I wasn't interested in listening. So he stopped bashing the church when he talked to me.

Not that you are bashing the church. But I just point out that people have their limits.

That's right. Fusnik is our friend, and we laugh with him when he comes back here and snickers at his CB trolls. Some of us have a weakness for that too. But then some here wonder if he's doing the same here sometimes. Maybe.

But I know people take on different personalities on different boards. At CB, I'm basically a tease/troll; at Utefans, an impatient curmudgeon; here sort of agnositic amateur bard.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

That's right. Fusnik is our friend, and we laugh with him when he comes back here and snickers at his CB trolls. Some of us have a weakness for that too. But then some here wonder if he's doing the same here sometimes. Maybe.

Honestly, honest inquisitions.

I don't shit where I eat, nor do I shit where I enjoy the company, as I don't like the company I enjoy to leave.

[Quisqueyano]

I would just like to address the content of most of your questions.
I think that your arguments are failed from the beginning based solely on definitions. You continue to use the terms salvation and exaltation interchangeabley. They are as interchangeable as justification and sanctification.
Also, I think you would do well to really understand the definition of the priesthood that we currently use for church administration. How it realtes to Gods power and the temple. it appears from your posts that you are taking a shot but falling well short of the mark. Almost as if you are looking at the gospel through a straw.
Just my opinion of what you have posted. Take it for what it's worth.