I was sort of baffled by the black guy that quoted John Taylor - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

All-American · 05-02-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Does having such a list serve any real purpose?

Do you think we should take the parts about Judah sleeping with a harlot out of the bible? Or David's affair with Bathsheba? Or Peter struggling to keep up with Jesus' expectations? If those stories serve any real purpose, so does knowing about the shortcomings of the leaders in our day.

I think the most important quote on races coming from a church leader would have to be Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2006. Make sure HE's on your list.

MikeWaters · 05-02-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Does having such a list serve any real purpose?

Yes. It is strong evidence that the origins of the policy were based in racism, and not godliness.

Jeff Lebowski · 05-02-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

I think the most important quote on races coming from a church leader would have to be Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2006. Make sure HE's on your list.

I agree with you. But in my experience, the mullahs will argue that what he said has no relevance whatsoever with the past policy of denying priesthood to blacks.

BarbaraGordon · 05-02-2007, 04:18 PM

Diamond, to answer your question, and I may be mistaken, but I believe these were the quotes referred to...

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses 22:304).

"Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did the Lord not kill him long ago? Because he could not do without him. He needed the devil and a great many of those who do his bidding to keep men straight, that we may learn to place our dependence on God, and trust in Him, and to observe his laws and keep his commandments. When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth" (Journal of Discourses 23:336).

Sleeping in EQ · 05-02-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

Do you think we should take the parts about Judah sleeping with a harlot out of the bible? Or David's affair with Bathsheba? Or Peter struggling to keep up with Jesus' expectations? If those stories serve any real purpose, so does knowing about the shortcomings of the leaders in our day.

I think the most important quote on races coming from a church leader would have to be Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2006. Make sure HE's on your list.

That was a great talk. President Hinckley could have gone even farther as far as I'm concerned, but a great talk nonetheless.

Indy Coug · 05-02-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

Do you think we should take the parts about Judah sleeping with a harlot out of the bible? Or David's affair with Bathsheba? Or Peter struggling to keep up with Jesus' expectations? If those stories serve any real purpose, so does knowing about the shortcomings of the leaders in our day.

I think the most important quote on races coming from a church leader would have to be Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2006. Make sure HE's on your list.

I'm not saying don't have an awareness of what has been said by past leaders of the church on race, I'm just wondering why you keep a list handy for reference?

Is it to balance out the cosmos since the Church has a file on you?

Black Diamond Bay · 05-02-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Diamond, to answer your question, and I may be mistaken, but I believe these were the quotes referred to...

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses 22:304).

"Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did the Lord not kill him long ago? Because he could not do without him. He needed the devil and a great many of those who do his bidding to keep men straight, that we may learn to place our dependence on God, and trust in Him, and to observe his laws and keep his commandments. When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth" (Journal of Discourses 23:336).

I'm guessing you're right. This must be the one. Interesting, thanks.

All-American · 05-02-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'm not saying don't have an awareness of what has been said by past leaders of the church on race, I'm just wondering why you keep a list handy for reference?

Is it to balance out the cosmos since the Church has a file on you?

SIEQ has a list handy of the first 10,000 characters of the human DNA strand. This list of quotes is nothing.

Sleeping in EQ · 05-02-2007, 04:31 PM

I don't want to toot my own horn here. I've no doubt screwed up many things for investigators over the years. But there have been times (one as recent as two weeks ago) where my knowing the nitty gritty of the Church's racist priesthood policy has been crucial in black investigators joining the Church. The missionaries have brought me over to talk to black investigators who struggle with the Church's history. Sometimes the missionaries explanations, while well intended, sound like excuse making and dissembling to black people.

MikeWaters · 05-02-2007, 04:36 PM

It is very dissatisfying to a missionary to reply to the blacks and priesthood issue with "we don't know why this was the case." Much more satisfying to have a convincing answer.

The GAs have left a void and it is being filled by people like SIEQ and myself. I wrote an article for the Student Review about the issue (positing that it was due to racism), and when the SR had a website, I was told it was the most accessed article/issue on the site. Members really hunger for an answer.

I don't know if I am right. But I have heard nothing that convinces me otherwise.

05-02-2007, 04:31 PM	#19
Sleeping in EQ Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The People's Republic of Monsanto Posts: 3,085	I don't want to toot my own horn here. I've no doubt screwed up many things for investigators over the years. But there have been times (one as recent as two weeks ago) where my knowing the nitty gritty of the Church's racist priesthood policy has been crucial in black investigators joining the Church. The missionaries have brought me over to talk to black investigators who struggle with the Church's history. Sometimes the missionaries explanations, while well intended, sound like excuse making and dissembling to black people. __________________ "Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

05-02-2007, 04:18 PM	#14
BarbaraGordon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Gotham City Posts: 7,157	Diamond, to answer your question, and I may be mistaken, but I believe these were the quotes referred to... "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses 22:304). "Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did the Lord not kill him long ago? Because he could not do without him. He needed the devil and a great many of those who do his bidding to keep men straight, that we may learn to place our dependence on God, and trust in Him, and to observe his laws and keep his commandments. When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth" (Journal of Discourses 23:336).

05-02-2007, 04:36 PM	#20
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	It is very dissatisfying to a missionary to reply to the blacks and priesthood issue with "we don't know why this was the case." Much more satisfying to have a convincing answer. The GAs have left a void and it is being filled by people like SIEQ and myself. I wrote an article for the Student Review about the issue (positing that it was due to racism), and when the SR had a website, I was told it was the most accessed article/issue on the site. Members really hunger for an answer. I don't know if I am right. But I have heard nothing that convinces me otherwise.