The zealot defenders of blacks and the priesthood

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Well, I didn't really say "surely he's involved" ... Maxwell did. I don't mean to do the old "argue with him, not me" tact, but I accept his words at face value. If he says God's in the details of our lives, I believe him.

And it strikes me as implausible to think he's involved in the detailed minutiae of my life, and yet not in his own church's. That is a logical argument.





Well there's no way to know for sure, is there. Based on what I know of the scriptures and what I've heard those who are in authority say, I choose to believe otherwise.

I have no problem with that. The issue is unknowable, so each of us is left to ponder the issue and see what we are comfortable with. In the end, I would suggest we also don't know the answer because God hasn't chosen to tell us (which may also suggest he doesn't feel a need to be involved in every issue) and because it isn't necessary to know.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The funny thing is that an apology is getting mistaken for an attack. What casts the worse light on the church: (1) God through his prophets decreed, for reasons we don't know, that the full blessings of the gospel were to be witheld for the most superficial of reasons (read here race) OR (2) God is no respecter of persons and the leaders of His church, though they meant well, were products of their time with engrained assumptions about race, and when enough time had passed new leaders were prepared to recieve the corrective guidence then God gave it to them.

What you apparently view as an attack on God, is actually an attempt by many of us to harmonize our belief that God is perfect, just and no respecter of persons with this particular fact of our history. It is much easier for me to believe that men are imperfect than it is for me to believe that God gives apparently racist directives. I must concede that God could have reasons I don't know about, but until I learn them, this is the easiest way for me to assimilate all of this into my belief that the LDS church is the true one.

Very well said Dan. This is what I've been trying to communicate all along.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by DarkBritches

Actually I would probably say the racist version to the racist. He probably needs that version more than the black person.

I'm sure the leaders of the LDS church are urging for more "racist-baptisms." Are you speaking from experience, dark britches?

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Very well said Dan. This is what I've been trying to communicate all along.

Yes, I fully agree with UD (and by extension, SteelBlue, and a lot of others here). This one is so simply accepted and such a no-brainer that I am quite taken aback by the opposition to even the suggestion that The Church and its leaders might have been wrong.

The problem with Mormons is that, for the most part, they still have so little real interaction with people of African decent that it is too easy to say, "Well, that's how God wanted it." and walk away. I'm sure that if that horizon was broadened significantly, most would come away saying, "Wow, we sure blew that one."

I think it was Brian that asked after leaving this sphere which video of world history we would want to watch. For me it would be, should the detractors here be correct, a video showing the proceedings of the grand council in heaven where God opted for November 1978 as the before and after for so many of his children. I'm really interested in the discussion that led up to that one.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Yes, I fully agree with UD (and by extension, SteelBlue, and a lot of others here). This one is so simply accepted and such a no-brainer that I am quite taken aback by the opposition to even the suggestion that The Church and its leaders might have been wrong.

The problem with Mormons is that, for the most part, they still have so little real interaction with people of African decent that it is too easy to say, "Well, that's how God wanted it." and walk away. I'm sure that if that horizon was broadened significantly, most would come away saying, "Wow, we sure blew that one."

I think it was Brian that asked after leaving this sphere which video of world history we would want to watch. For me it would be, should the detractors here be correct, a video showing the proceedings of the grand council in heaven where God opted for November 1978 as the before and after for so many of his children. I'm really interested in the discussion that led up to that one.

You didn't exactly see God send out the Israelites to proselyte throughout the world before Christ's birth, did you?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Yes, I fully agree with UD (and by extension, SteelBlue, and a lot of others here). This one is so simply accepted and such a no-brainer that I am quite taken aback by the opposition to even the suggestion that The Church and its leaders might have been wrong.

I can't speak for the others, but for me, it's not so much a question of whether or not they were "wrong" (the definition of which must now be called into question), but whether or not God had a hand in it. As a parallel, I'm quite taken aback by the opposition to the idea that God might have had something to do with it. Given God's long history with the world, it seems to be a quintessentially American 20th century notion.

Originally Posted by myboynoah

The problem with Mormons is that, for the most part, they still have so little real interaction with people of African decent that it is too easy to say, "Well, that's how God wanted it." and walk away. I'm sure that if that horizon was broadened significantly, most would come away saying, "Wow, we sure blew that one."

That may or may not be true, but I can tell you, I know plenty of black folks. This topic is not a frequent one for us, and even if it were, I would certainly not say "Well, that's how God wanted it," and walk away. What I've always said is, "I don't know."

It's the same approach I take with homosexuals (albeit a different response) when they ask the same questions. Just because we forbid them from being members (while engaging in such behavior) doesn't mean we answer them callously.

Originally Posted by myboynoah

I think it was Brian that asked after leaving this sphere which video of world history we would want to watch. For me it would be, should the detractors here be correct, a video showing the proceedings of the grand council in heaven where God opted for November 1978 as the before and after for so many of his children. I'm really interested in the discussion that led up to that one.

While you're at it, cue up the video of the Grand Council proceedings when it was decided that Saul should be commanded to massacre the Amalekites, "both man and woman, infant and suckling" (1 Sam 15).

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

While you're at it, cue of up the video of the Grand Council proceedings when it was decided that Saul should be commanded to massacre the Amalekites, "both man and woman, infant and suckling" (1 Sam 15).

You think this helps your case? Appealing to extreme examples in the OT as parallel examples would seem to weaken your argument, IMO.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You didn't exactly see God send out the Israelites to proselyte throughout the world before Christ's birth, did you?

No, but I did live through the era where Mormons were sent out to do exactly that but found themselves checking people's family pictures in Brazil before baptism, passing on black households, and placing truth-seekers in Ghana on hold for years because they couldn't get beyond this issue.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

No, but I did live through the era where Mormons were sent out to do exactly that but found themselves checking people's family pictures in Brazil before baptism, passing on black households, and placing truth-seekers in Ghana on hold for years because they couldn't get beyond this issue.

Or the church sending a team of geneologists to South Africa to search through members' ancestors to ensure that there was no black blood prior to allowing them to go to the temple.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You think this helps your case? Appealing to extreme examples in the OT as parallel examples would seem to weaken your argument, IMO.

On the contrary, it illustrates that God sometimes commands things that seem unfair, irrational, wrong, bad, evil, whatever ...

Or we can apply the Cougarguard standard and assume that Samuel was completely off his axle, and that God was dinking around in the heavens waiting for a prophet he could count on.