Obedience, Divine Intervention and Religion - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Requiem · 10-26-2007, 04:03 PM

I am currently reading Ken Follett's new book World Without End (sequel to Pillars of the Earth, outstanding read). Set in 14th century Europe, the book vividly describes life in a community dominated by activities related to the local Cathedral and religious hierarchy. Without giving anything away, it is clear that people of that time held an absolute belief that their earthly blessings were inextricably tied to their level of obedience. Religious leaders used that psychology to extract sacrifice in terms of material goods (e.g. crops, goods and money), and blind obedience.

Fast forward to our present time. I am struck by how little has changed. Regardless of sect, organized religion seeks believers who will obey their particular creed and donate time and money in exchange for promised blessings - either in this life or the next.

With these brief thoughts in mind, I ask the following serious questions:

1. Obedience What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")?

2. Divine Intervention Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy?

I pose these questions in a serious vein and am honestly interested in your intelligent and well thought responses. Please refrain from boorish personal attacks and sexual innuendo. Think of it as my final attempt to find value here.

Jeff Lebowski · 10-26-2007, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Requiem

Please refrain from boorish personal attacks and sexual innuendo. Think of it as my final attempt to find value here.

Interesting. Why the sudden hostility?

Indy Coug · 10-26-2007, 04:19 PM

Regarding divine intervention and being rewarded for good deeds/punished for bad deeds.

There are a lot of factors at play. Some of them are:

1. Foreordination - we were foreordained to do certain things and experience certain trials in this life
2. Adversity - adversity is the result of our choices, the choices of others and foreordained trials
3. Timeframe for being rewarded/punished - I'm not aware of any rule that states how long you have to wait to be rewarded for a good deed or punished for a bad one
4. Divine intervention - I think it's entirely possible we will come to discover that divine intervention has directly affected our lives a lot more frequently than we think. I think Divine Intervention and Foreordination have some significant overlap.

There's my five minutes of thought on the subject.

Tex · 10-26-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Requiem

1. Obedience What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")?

People have lots of reasons for obedience, some of which you've mentioned. My personal opinion: obedience ought to be a result of love of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Requiem

2. Divine Intervention Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy?

I do believe God is involved (don't know if I'd use the word "intervene") in our lives on a daily basis. My avatar's name sake has said as much.

As to why some appear to suffer more than others: this is the question of the ages. The lives of men over the history of the world constitute billions of threads in a giant interwoven tapestry, and truly only God can see all ends. But whatever his methods or his reasons, it is certainly inappropriate (as you have suggested) to judge men based on such criteria.

JohnnyLingo · 10-26-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Interesting. Why the sudden hostility?

Sudden?

Mindfulcoug · 10-26-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Requiem

I am currently reading Ken Follett's new book World Without End (sequel to Pillars of the Earth, outstanding read). Set in 14th century Europe, the book vividly describes life in a community dominated by activities related to the local Cathedral and religious hierarchy. Without giving anything away, it is clear that people of that time held an absolute belief that their earthly blessings were inextricably tied to their level of obedience. Religious leaders used that psychology to extract sacrifice in terms of material goods (e.g. crops, goods and money), and blind obedience.

Fast forward to our present time. I am struck by how little has changed. Regardless of sect, organized religion seeks believers who will obey their particular creed and donate time and money in exchange for promised blessings - either in this life or the next.

With these brief thoughts in mind, I ask the following serious questions:

1. Obedience What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")?

2. Divine Intervention Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy?

I pose these questions in a serious vein and am honestly interested in your intelligent and well thought responses. Please refrain from boorish personal attacks and sexual innuendo. Think of it as my final attempt to find value here.

i have something to say ,but i am afraid ,you would have to dismiss them if you are seeking for the answer in mormon realm.

Archaea · 10-26-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

i have something to say ,but i am afraid ,you would have to dismiss them if you are seeking for the answer in mormon realm.

Ken Follet, to the best of my knowledge, is NOT Mormon, so your comments will be received in the spirit in which they are prepared.

Mindfulcoug · 10-26-2007, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

Ken Follet, to the best of my knowledge, is NOT Mormon, so your comment will be received in the spirit in which they are prepared.

Am i going to please Requiem with my answer or is it Ken Follet which i have to deal with ? i thought Reuiem presented what she/he considered as his/her own serious questions ..hence the comment..

Archaea · 10-26-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

Am i going to please Requiem with my answer or is it Ken Follet which i have to deal with ? i thought Reuiem presented what she/he considered as his/her own serious questions ..hence the comment..

Is the purpose to please Requiem or to post thought provoking musings?

Mindfulcoug · 10-26-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

Is the purpose to please Requiem or to post thought provoking musings?

well i was being figurative ,but at the same time i am considering Requeim as a respected contemplator ,so i would have to provide genuine answers to marry the questions and please the inquirer , which indeed would produce food for the thoughts synchronously.

but the very first thing i have to take care ,is "the principal of the discussion"
which i suppose, differs for me and Requiem.

10-26-2007, 04:03 PM	#1
Requiem Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 474	Obedience, Divine Intervention and Religion I am currently reading Ken Follett's new book *World Without End* (sequel to *Pillars of the Earth, outstanding read). Set in 14th century Europe, the book vividly describes life in a community dominated by activities related to the local Cathedral and religious hierarchy. Without giving anything away, it is clear that people of that time held an absolute belief that their earthly blessings were inextricably tied to their level of obedience. Religious leaders used that psychology to extract sacrifice in terms of material goods (e.g. crops, goods and money), and blind obedience. Fast forward to our present time. I am struck by how little has changed. Regardless of sect, organized religion seeks believers who will obey their particular creed and donate time and money in exchange for promised blessings - either in this life or the next. With these brief thoughts in mind, I ask the following serious questions: 1. Obedience* What is the driving force behind obedience to religious doctrines? Are we in it for the blessings (e.g. health, wealth and salvation), or is it out of love for our fellow men? Do we pay tithes and offerings as protection against personal misfortune (i.e. opening the "windows of heaven")? 2. *Divine Intervention* Does God intervene in our daily lives according to our level of obedience? If so, why is God apparently so selective in bestowing said blessings? Why do we observe some individuals and families escape this life seemingly unscathed - while others experience such great suffering? Similar to the fourteenth century, do we judge those who suffer as being less worthy? I pose these questions in a serious vein and am honestly interested in your intelligent and well thought responses. Please refrain from boorish personal attacks and sexual innuendo. Think of it as my final attempt to find value here.

10-26-2007, 04:19 PM	#3
Indy Coug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Between Iraq and a hard place Posts: 7,569	Regarding divine intervention and being rewarded for good deeds/punished for bad deeds. There are a lot of factors at play. Some of them are: 1. Foreordination - we were foreordained to do certain things and experience certain trials in this life 2. Adversity - adversity is the result of our choices, the choices of others and foreordained trials 3. Timeframe for being rewarded/punished - I'm not aware of any rule that states how long you have to wait to be rewarded for a good deed or punished for a bad one 4. Divine intervention - I think it's entirely possible we will come to discover that divine intervention has directly affected our lives a lot more frequently than we think. I think Divine Intervention and Foreordination have some significant overlap. There's my five minutes of thought on the subject.