Photos from today's protest

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by exUte

I guess I read that story in the wrong context. What other things has God said that he really didn't mean?

I think somewhere in the Bible he "repented" and promised not to drown everyone again. Not sure on that one I will admit.

Look, I am being silly here. God knows what he is doing. However, for you to read something the First Presidency says and then do your own interpretation and then claim it is God's word, not yours is beyond silly. It is assinine.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Those that go both ways may be have been born that way or an aquired taste. What I am saying is that anyone who claims that "NO" gays are born that way are speaking from ignorance. I thought you said that, but maybe I misunderstood you.

In other posts I have mentioned that I have never known a gay individual that I would consider to have been born gay or at least that they expressed to me that they were born gay. I have interacted with gays in the work place, neighborhood kids I grew up with, church counseling. I will admit, my experience has been limited and the sample pool is minute, but, that interaction and my belief in the creation of man and the existence of God, has led conclude that gay people choose to be gay.

I will acknowledge that our bodies are complex and our genetic make up I am sure can affect how we think, what we feel, etc...the environment can also affect how people choose to live their lives. However, the bottom line is that an individual still has to make a choice to live a gay lifestyle, a lifestyle that is not consistent with God's teachings.

Prop 8 was not about deciding whether or not one was born or chose to be gay. It was about gay marriage. I was in favor of prop 8 not because of my belief that people choose to be gay, rather, it was that I did not want to legitimize behavior that I consider to be contrary to God's teachings. Marriage is the "crown jewel" for homosexuality and the debate is not over.

I am done with this topic.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I think somewhere in the Bible he "repented" and promised not to drown everyone again. Not sure on that one I will admit.

Look, I am being silly here. God knows what he is doing. However, for you to read something the First Presidency says and then do your own interpretation and then claim it is God's word, not yours is beyond silly. It is assinine.

LOL

Give me your 'interpretation' on what they really meant? Or what God really meant assuming they were merely the mouthpiece? This I gotta hear!

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

I believe being gay is a choice, I have no fecal matter on my shoes, and yes my IQ is greater than 50.

When did you choose to be heterosexual? Was it a tough decision? Did you make out a table with pros and cons? What if the prophet told you to turn gay? Could you do it?

Or, with Tex's example of being gay akin to just giving in to a weakness, do you struggle with these inclinations often? When a hot guy walks by, do you just sing a hymn?

I usually appreciate your responses, but to make the blanket statement that being gay is a choice is just beyond ignorant. I don't doubt there are exceptions out there, but they are exactly that--exceptions.

I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion in the year 2008. Even church leaders have accepted this.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

When did you choose to be heterosexual? Was it a tough decision? Did you make out a table with pros and cons? What if the prophet told you to turn gay? Could you do it?

Or, with Tex's example of being gay akin to just giving in to a weakness, do you struggle with these inclinations often? When a hot guy walks by, do you just sing a hymn?

I usually appreciate your responses, but to make the blanket statement that being gay is a choice is just beyond ignorant. I don't doubt there are exceptions out there, but they are exactly that--exceptions.

I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion in the year 2008. Even church leaders have accepted this.

It's not a choice.....as a blanket statement? That is as ignorant. The case I am aware of. Yes, it was a result of his home life. He's even mentioned it. But I guess he could be lying.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

In other posts I have mentioned that I have never known a gay individual that I would consider to have been born gay or at least that they expressed to me that they were born gay. I have interacted with gays in the work place, neighborhood kids I grew up with, church counseling. I will admit, my experience has been limited and the sample pool is minute, but, that interaction and my belief in the creation of man and the existence of God, has led conclude that gay people choose to be gay.

I will acknowledge that our bodies are complex and our genetic make up I am sure can affect how we think, what we feel, etc...the environment can also affect how people choose to live their lives. However, the bottom line is that an individual still has to make a choice to live a gay lifestyle, a lifestyle that is not consistent with God's teachings.

Prop 8 was not about deciding whether or not one was born or chose to be gay. It was about gay marriage. I was in favor of prop 8 not because of my belief that people choose to be gay, rather, it was that I did not want to legitimize behavior that I consider to be contrary to God's teachings. Marriage is the "crown jewel" for homosexuality and the debate is not over.

I am done with this topic.

I'm assuming you're talking about your interactions with members as a bishop. In these cases, no, I don't doubt that they're going to claim to be born that way--they're hoping to change. This is not a representative sample of gay people.

I'll agree with you that it's a choice to live the lifestyle. But that's not the question. The question is can they fundamentally change their sexuality at their core. In most cases, I doubt it.

Whether or not they have gay sex isn't what makes them gay. Would you have considered yourself neutral up until the point you had sex?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

When did you choose to be heterosexual? Was it a tough decision? Did you make out a table with pros and cons? What if the prophet told you to turn gay? Could you do it?

Or, with Tex's example of being gay akin to just giving in to a weakness, do you struggle with these inclinations often? When a hot guy walks by, do you just sing a hymn?

I usually appreciate your responses, but to make the blanket statement that being gay is a choice is just beyond ignorant. I don't doubt there are exceptions out there, but they are exactly that--exceptions.

I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion in the year 2008. Even church leaders have accepted this.

"When did you choose to be a heterosexual" vs "homosexual" is a poor analogy. It sounds very clever, but is really based on the false premise that heterosexuality and homosexuality are equal and co-normal sides of the same coin. They aren't.

Hetereosexuality is a normal, God-given, innate trait of humanity that, within the bounds the Lord has set, is encouraged to be given full expression. Homosexuality is a deviant form of sexuality, the full or partial expression of which is always sinful. I accept that there are some people who seem innately afflicted with this temptation through no fault of their own. This does not mean we should normalize it.

As to the question of choice, you're misrepresenting both the church's position, and the status of the question in society. The insistence that "the debate is over," when it really isn't, strikes me as reflective of a position with a weak foundation. It'd be like John McCain walking on to the 1st Presidential debate stage, announcing "clearly I'm the better candidate and Barack and his supporters are ignoramuses," and then walking off the stage.

Debates are won by solid logic, evidence, and reasoning, not by blandly calling everyone who disagrees with you "ignorant."

Also, you keep talking about exceptions and "representative samples" as though you have some evidence to that effect. Do you have any studies as to how many people say they choose to be gay vs. say they are born that way? If such studies exist, do we have any way to verify their claims one way or the other?

Again, you assume evidence where none exists, and you castigate cougarobgon for drawing conclusions on anecdotes when that appears to be exactly what you have done.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

When did you choose to be heterosexual? Was it a tough decision? Did you make out a table with pros and cons? What if the prophet told you to turn gay? Could you do it?

Or, with Tex's example of being gay akin to just giving in to a weakness, do you struggle with these inclinations often? When a hot guy walks by, do you just sing a hymn?

I usually appreciate your responses, but to make the blanket statement that being gay is a choice is just beyond ignorant. I don't doubt there are exceptions out there, but they are exactly that--exceptions.

I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion in the year 2008. Even church leaders have accepted this.

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I'm assuming you're talking about your interactions with members as a bishop. In these cases, no, I don't doubt that they're going to claim to be born that way--they're hoping to change. This is not a representative sample of gay people.

I'll agree with you that it's a choice to live the lifestyle. But that's not the question. The question is can they fundamentally change their sexuality at their core. In most cases, I doubt it.

Whether or not they have gay sex isn't what makes them gay. Would you have considered yourself neutral up until the point you had sex?

I don't recall ever being attracted to a man. The first girl I kissed was when I was 5-7 years old. I did not know what I was doing, but I still remember her and I going behind my house to kiss. I still remember her name and her beautiful eyes. Yes, I am bragging a bit, but, I did start very young.

I was born male and have been attracted to females all my life. There was not need for a chart to know what would be bring me great joy.

The prophet will never ask me to turn gay.

I have weaknesses that I struggle with and accept the consequences when I give in. I am not attracted to hot guys, hot girls are are a different story, and hymns usually do the trick. Ocassionally, I have resort to other methods.

Beyond ignorance is a matter of perception...I believe what I believe based on the experiences I have had with gay people. Up until yesterday I was not up to date on the Church's current "We Have No Position" on this this issue, at least that is my understanding after reading Elder Oaks' and Elder Wickman's statements. Again, I have excercised my free agency, relied on my experiences and made a decision. Conveniently for you being born gay is normal and choosing to live gay is the exception.

I explained that my interactions have been with people in the work environment, kids in my neigborhood when growing up (as well classmates), and people in Church while I was bishop. Why would you dismiss those individuals reaching a conclusion that they were not born that way and recognized they were making choices contrary to God's teachings? Isn't this the goal of every individual to recognize when they are commiting sin and make a change?

ER, I am not an ignorant uneducated buffoon. Up until a couple of days ago I purposely stayed out of the Prop 8 discussions, but, a post that suggested the Church was totally wrong and would suffer long term affects for its prop 8position irked me and I injected myself into the discussions.

The Church will be fine, the work will move forward, and we need to brace ourselves for other fights in the future. The gay marriage issue is not going anywhere.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

"When did you choose to be a heterosexual" vs "homosexual" is a poor analogy. It sounds very clever, but is really based on the false premise that heterosexuality and homosexuality are equal and co-normal sides of the same coin. They aren't.

Hetereosexuality is a normal, God-given, innate trait of humanity that, within the bounds the Lord has set, is encouraged to be given full expression. Homosexuality is a deviant form of sexuality, the full or partial expression of which is always sinful. I accept that there are some people who seem innately afflicted with this temptation through no fault of their own. This does not mean we should normalize it.

Sophistry. Pure and simple. You intentionally obfuscate the discussion by waffling on a meaningless distinction between SSA vs. gay. And after denying ER's point, you concede the point (see bold), but reduce the argument to a debate over "most" vs. "some". Argh.

Originally Posted by Tex

Debates are won by solid logic, evidence, and reasoning, not by blandly calling everyone who disagrees with you "ignorant."

None of which you have demonstrated consistently in this debate. See the next point.

Originally Posted by Tex

Also, you keep talking about exceptions and "representative samples" as though you have some evidence to that effect. Do you have any studies as to how many people say they choose to be gay vs. say they are born that way? If such studies exist, do we have any way to verify their claims one way or the other?

There are countless studies in the scientific/academic literature to this effect. The overwhelming body of evidence points to SSA being innate, and not a choice for the majority of gays. But I love how you cleverly inserted that last sentence. This gives you a convenient out in case someone bothers to give you citations. The ultimate cop-out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Case in point:

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49488/1121

I can't imagine they would allow a lecture like this in today's climate. It's a pity.