about Turkey and EU

[MikeWaters]

read the last part of this article, and then try to imagine why the EU would want Turkey.

It's because Europe is not so different actually. They don't really believe in freedom either.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ink/index.html

[il Padrino Ute]

It's a shame this happened and I don't want to be disrespectful, but dangit, I couldn't help but chuckle more and more each time I read his name in that article.

RIP, Dink.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

read the last part of this article, and then try to imagine why the EU would want Turkey.

It's because Europe is not so different actually. They don't really believe in freedom either.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ink/index.html

They only want Turkey because Turkey wants them so badly and Turkey is the one majority Muslim country that purports to aspire to Westernization including granting full civil liberties, has a respectable GNP, education level, etc. Some of this is hyperbole. Turkey didn't kill this journalist; some Islamic nut did. But note that it hasn't been easy for Turkey to get into the EU.

Your comment that Europe doesn't believe in freedom doesn't deserve a reply. I'll tell you this, Europe by and large has a low regard for religion, and this illustrates why. Take religion away from liberal democratic society that is essentially a 230 year old phenomenon and this is what religion becomes--a killer of dissidents. Do you know of any exceptions in history?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

They only want Turkey because Turkey wants them so badly and Turkey is the one majority Muslim country that purports to aspire to Westernization including granting full civil liberties, has a respectable GNP, education level, etc. Some of this is hyperbole. Turkey didn't kill this journalist; some Islamic nut did. But note that it hasn't been easy for Turkey to get into the EU.

Your comment that Europe doesn't believe in freedom doesn't deserve a reply. I'll tell you this, Europe by and large has a low regard for religion, and this illustrates why. Take religion away from liberal democratic society that is essentially a 230 year old phenomenon and this is what religion becomes--a killer of dissidents. Do you know of any exceptions in history?

So, religion is the cause of the world's problems?

I disagree. If society were to follow the counsel of the 10 commandments, specifically 5-10, societies' ills would be solved.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

They only want Turkey because Turkey wants them so badly and Turkey is the one majority Muslim country that purports to aspire to Westernization including granting full civil liberties, has a respectable GNP, education level, etc. Some of this is hyperbole. Turkey didn't kill this journalist; some Islamic nut did. But note that it hasn't been easy for Turkey to get into the EU.

Your comment that Europe doesn't believe in freedom doesn't deserve a reply. I'll tell you this, Europe by and large has a low regard for religion, and this illustrates why. Take religion away from liberal democratic society that is essentially a 230 year old phenomenon and this is what religion becomes--a killer of dissidents. Do you know of any exceptions in history?

I get the impression that the Europeans (outside of the UK) don't want Turkey to join the EU at all. They continue to make Turkey jump through all kinds of hoops before even considering the question. Fear of Turkish ascension was one of the main drivers behind the rejection of the EU constitution by France and The Netherlands. France and Germany, currently Europe's two most populace countries, fear losing that clout to 70 million Turks. Western Europe also doesn't want to be overrun by cheap Turkish labor (they already complain about "Polish plumbers"). There is also an element of religious bigotry and racism involved.

IMO, bringing Turkey into the EU would be a major step toward bridging the gap between the Western and Islamic worlds. Sadly, I expect the Europeans to miss the opportunity. They like to talk a big game, as long as someone else is playing.

[MikeWaters]

Freedom of Speech is not the same in Europe. Not even close.

I know this doesn't deserve a reply from SU, because frankly, he is ignorant about the subject.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Freedom of Speech is not the same in Europe. Not even close.

I know this doesn't deserve a reply from SU, because frankly, he is ignorant about the subject.

I know that France has laws against denying Turkish genoside of Armenians, and the Germans have laws against Nazi speech, etc. Your statement that they don't believe in freedom of speech is over the top, however.

You also implied that Europe abridges civil liberties in the same way Turkey does. Not at all. If anything Europe to a fault tries to legislate against lies. I know that would complicate your style.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

I get the impression that the Europeans (outside of the UK) don't want Turkey to join the EU at all. They continue to make Turkey jump through all kinds of hoops before even considering the question. Fear of Turkish ascension was one of the main drivers behind the rejection of the EU constitution by France and The Netherlands. France and Germany, currently Europe's two most populace countries, fear losing that clout to 70 million Turks. Western Europe also doesn't want to be overrun by cheap Turkish labor (they already complain about "Polish plumbers"). There is also an element of religious bigotry and racism involved.

IMO, bringing Turkey into the EU would be a major step toward bridging the gap between the Western and Islamic worlds. Sadly, I expect the Europeans to miss the opportunity. They like to talk a big game, as long as someone else is playing.

A significant portion of the political elites of Europe do want Turkey in the EU, but the populace does not share enthusiasm for this idea. Inclusion of Turkey is vital to the aims of the EU in integration, and probably to the preservation of the European state as it is currently constituted, because Turkey is a country that has aa growing population while almost the entire EU is on the verge of shrinking. Including Turkey could help stave off the demographic pressures that are the most difficult problem lurking in Europe's future.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

A significant portion of the political elites of Europe do want Turkey in the EU, but the populace does not share enthusiasm for this idea. Inclusion of Turkey is vital to the aims of the EU in integration, and probably to the preservation of the European state as it is currently constituted, because Turkey is a country that has aa growing population while almost the entire EU is on the verge of shrinking. Including Turkey could help stave off the demographic pressures that are the most difficult problem lurking in Europe's future.

Perhaps, as an intellectual construct, but I don't see many French elites strongly supporting Turkish ascension. Doing so would decrease their political clout inside Europe significantly.

I guess I don't understand how Western Europe could look to Turkey as relief from its demographic troubles. There is no unified EU social security system, so relief could only come via Turkish immigration to specific countries. If its young foreign workers Western Europe needs to solve the future problems brought on my its aging population, it doesn't need to bring in Turkey to the EU. It could simply ease its immigration laws and they would come flooding in from all over.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Perhaps, as an intellectual construct, but I don't see many French elites strongly supporting Turkish ascension. Doing so would decrease their political clout inside Europe significantly.

I guess I don't understand how Western Europe could look to Turkey as relief from its demographic troubles. There is no unified EU social security system, so relief could only come via Turkish immigration to specific countries. If its young foreign workers Western Europe needs to solve the future problems brought on my its aging population, it doesn't need to bring in Turkey to the EU. It could simply ease its immigration laws and they would come flooding in from all over.

Some of that will be necessary. But would you not, if you were France or any other nation for that matter, rather have borders where people can go across and come back? If Turkey is brought into the EU that would by its very nature, lead to a norming of democratic institutions and probably mean a higher standard of living and education (although not necessarily high enough not to want to emigrate). Of course, none of this even mentions the potential security and symbolic benefits.