Political and policy arguments:

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I would argue a lot of Non-Mormons base their opinions based on upon faith based issues as well.

They do, but they still make weak arguments.

Those making arguments based on humanity do so as well.

All political and policy arguments should, but don't, start from a utilitarian perspective. Is this useful, and if so, how so? What tangible benefits result?

A cost based analysis should also be involved, as well as tax implications.

If society did this, we might arrive at more logical results.

If Bush had looked at the Iraq situation from this perspective, I believe he never would have started it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

In our LDS culture, I notice many persons who try to make public policy based on scripture, which although scripture does not offend me, policy in a diverse culture based on scripture or at least justifying it thereon is misplaced.

In fact, outside of a pure religion thread, it makes no sense to refer to religion at all in discussing any matters not specifically designed to be religious.

Most policies can be understood in terms of economics, taxes, security, liberties but usually end up as social failures when we rely upon a nonconsensus religious belief, "morality", "humanity" or other vague, standardless notions.

Now I don't see a need for religious arguments to necessarily rely upon scientific proofs or other tangible evidence, although it makes it more practical if they do.

The failure of the religionists makes it difficult to discourse with the nonreligionists especially in the political arena. Now the atheists or agnostics frequently debate in "human" terms which also should be dismissed as those are vague, meaningnless terms.

I couldn't disagree more. And I think your whole premise shows a naivete about how humans think.

How can I seperate religion from how I think about anything let alone politics??

Could I ask you to think about something, ignoring any influence your father might have had on your thinking?

Could I ask you to think about something ignoring any influence being a caucasian would have on the issue?

Think about an issue ignoring the fact that you're an American.

How do you do it?

Besides that fact, why would you WANT to? Your religion is important in how you come to view important world events, societal rules, etc. Why would you want to throw away that influence in your political views?

How could you?? And why would you even if you could??

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The only logical starting point is utilitarian point of views. If there isn't some utilitarian purpose, then we don't even need to start.

And if Mormons shed their reliance upon faith-based arguments, it will strengthen their intellects and useufulness in the modern world.

I took a political philosophy class at BYU from J. Holland's son. He had to warn everybody not to be dogmatic with statements like, "It's this way because Moroni said so."

When arguing in a secular setting there are plenty of thinkers that have spouted Gospel truths we can apeal to in our arguments. I had a roommate who used Aristotle's teleology to argue against gay marriage. Unfortunately, most of us LDS are trained to think that way.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I couldn't disagree more. And I think your whole premise shows a naivete about how humans think.

How can I seperate religion from how I think about anything let alone politics??

Could I ask you to think about something, ignoring any influence your father might have had on your thinking?

Could I ask you to think about something ignoring any influence being a caucasian would have on the issue?

Think about an issue ignoring the fact that you're an American.

How do you do it?

Besides that fact, why would you WANT to? Your religion is important in how you come to view important world events, societal rules, etc. Why would you want to throw away that influence in your political views?

How could you?? And why would you even if you could??

Why? To purify your thinking, to bring clarity to it.

Thoughts and processes are much like diamonds that require cutting ane examination from every angle. If we are too comfortable looking at it through a Gospel lens, our other faculties will become dull and lazy.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

I took a political philosophy class at BYU from J. Holland's son. He had to warn everybody not to be dogmatic with statements like, "It's this way because Moroni said so."

When arguing in a secular setting there are plenty of thinkers that have spouted Gospel truths we can apeal to in our arguments. I had a roommate who used Aristotle's teleology to argue against gay marriage. Unfortunately, most of us LDS are trained to think that way.

That kind of call to authority stuff is just not pleasant in people, but that doesn't mean you seperate your religion from your thinking.

One LDS person might say according to my religion...

my religion defined as:

my interpretation of scripture
my interpretation of doctrine
my interpretation of the Holy Ghost
my past experiences and observations involving anything religious
my testimony
etc.

...according to my religion...I will vote pro-choice because of x,y,z.

While another might say according to my religion...I will vote pro-life because of x,y,z.

But still your religious views can't possibly be eliminated from the thought process. It's assinine to believe they can.