Fawn Brodie delved into anti-Mormon literature...

[Robin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

She didn't reject Mormonism because of the anti-Mormon books. Brodie characterized them as "scurrilous." You yourself said something to the effect that Mormonism demands such complete suspension of the intellect that no one should reject it based upon discovery of the "Book of Abraham" scrolls alone.

Faith is the opposite of REASON/LOGIC, not 'the intellect.'

Faith will always reduce down to some fundamental dogma that exists outside of universal human experience. That doesn't make it anti-intellectual... it just means that religious genius and faith-based intellectual work are more closely related to poetry and painting than they are to science.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

You evince a dismayingly simplistic view of French attitudes toward their mother church. (It reflects traditional anti-Catholicism of your religious heritage.) There's no question that the French hold the perpetrators of the French Revolution in lower regard than Catholic clergy of the age, and especially Catholic clergy of today. Today if you visit the magnificent medieval French cathedrals French sadly point out damage done by French revolutionary thugs. Everyone knows about the perpetual rising and falling guillotine blades, which came ultimately to decapitate the original perpetrators of the Revolution, but that was not the half of it. Ironically, as often happens with revolutions, the French Revolution itself has come to stand for ideological and dogmatic excess. More important, whatever the Catholic Church's transgressions, and admittedly there are many, any educated person would credit the distinction between Catholicism and Islam as a but for cause of the difference between what we have become and what the Middle East has become.

French are more aware than your average American of the complex interplay between the Catholic church and the intellectual movements that made our modern world. For them it's an old story. France was arguably the cradle of the Enlightenment, and later the Romantic movement, which reacted to the excesses of the Enlightenment.

But I digress. Logically, if the LDS Church presented such a positive contrast to the Catholic Church, your point (the factual predicate of which is just plain wrong, as explained above) would lead us to expect that France, with its strong Catholic presence, should be a hotbed of Mormon conversions. It's not, the contrary is true, and for the obvious reasons. Carrying your logic further, how do you explain the virtual absence of LDS converts in countries such as Germany, Holland and Great Britain where the Protestant Reformation came to dominate, and being a Catholic involved risking life and limb long before the French Revolution?

You're just as guilty as you accuse Noah of. You've oversimplified and ignored aspects of French society and their "relationship" with their church.

Noah has valid access in that he lives there.

What is your relationship to France? How well do you converse in French?

I admit my relationship at times with French society is superficial, but it has existed for 36 years, ranging from travel, linguistics, and poetry.

First point. Not all segments of any society, let along French society are sophisticated. As an example, when I served a mission in Germany, I was excited. I thought here will be a sophisticated bunch of intellectuals who understood Goethe and Lessing. For whom Kant would be commonplace. Boy was I disappointed. The average German heard about those things once in school, but had no familiarity with it. Same with the French; just because their reading of the telephone annuaire sounds cool, doesn't make it anything more than a phone book.

Second, French intellectual traditions often are almost counter-intuitive. In French writing, they go bottoms up, starting with a thesis and seeking out information that merely complies with their thesis. At one time, double blind scientific studies were uncommon, or at least not required. I remember researching a case for the FTC in hair growth. The studies proposed by the scheisters were French and Finnish, non-double blind studies, basically testimonials and they passed that off as science.

Third, France, as well as Germany, reject religion, not out of intellectual sophistication, but out of wealth. Education probably plays a role, but in my research a smaller role. Money plays a bigger role, usually, in religiosity. If you're needy, you think about things, but if you have no needs, you play and stop thinking about things, to state it overly simplistically. The Church has demographics as to which groups are most receptive and least receptive. The French have almost no relationship to their Church. It's very odd to be religious in French society. It's frowned upon. Mind you, I like the French, I try to understand them, but it's very awkward being French, it's awkward to work within the labyrinthian maze which is French society. It is cumbersome, but I wouldn't characterize French relations with her Church to be sophisticated. Yes, there are French intellectuals who recognize the roles her Church played, but the average French citizen has abdicated his religion and the average Frenchman is not very cultivated or sophisticated. That is the greatest myth ever perpetrated.

The least receptive are the very wealthy, not the most educated. The poorest have no time either.

[RockyBalboa]

SU...this thread is a prime example of you getting your ass handed to you.

[MikeWaters]

I've only met one Catholic whom I could say was at least as religiously informed as the average RM. (He is a member of Opus Dei). But that's neither here nor there.

The reasons behind religiosity and non-religiosity are complex. SU has a theory, and that's fine. But he may be hard-pressed to explain why religiosity is increasing among young Americans. That they are more religious than their predecessors. He will not be able to understand this, because he does not understand the pull of religion. It's like trying to explain The Force to Han Solo.

Religiosity is wired into human beings. It is literally written into the DNA and expressed in terms of brain structure.

And please SU, for the second time, do not say that I have said increasing education coincides with decreased religiosity. If I implied that, I didn't mean to. Further characterization of my words as meaning that would be nothing more than childish aggression on your part.

Those that gleefully rub their hands in expectation of the downfall of religion, Christianity, and Mormonism will be disappointed. This, I can assure you.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You're just as guilty as you accuse Noah of. You've oversimplified and ignored aspects of French society and their "relationship" with their church.

Noah has valid access in that he lives there.

What is your relationship to France? How well do you converse in French?

I admit my relationship at times with French society is superficial, but it has existed for 36 years, ranging from travel, linguistics, and poetry.

First point. Not all segments of any society, let along French society are sophisticated. As an example, when I served a mission in Germany, I was excited. I thought here will be a sophisticated bunch of intellectuals who understood Goethe and Lessing. For whom Kant would be commonplace. Boy was I disappointed. The average German heard about those things once in school, but had no familiarity with it. Same with the French; just because their reading of the telephone annuaire sounds cool, doesn't make it anything more than a phone book.

Second, French intellectual traditions often are almost counter-intuitive. In French writing, they go bottoms up, starting with a thesis and seeking out information that merely complies with their thesis. At one time, double blind scientific studies were uncommon, or at least not required. I remember researching a case for the FTC in hair growth. The studies proposed by the scheisters were French and Finnish, non-double blind studies, basically testimonials and they passed that off as science.

Third, France, as well as Germany, reject religion, not out of intellectual sophistication, but out of wealth. Education probably plays a role, but in my research a smaller role. Money plays a bigger role, usually, in religiosity. If you're needy, you think about things, but if you have no needs, you play and stop thinking about things, to state it overly simplistically. The Church has demographics as to which groups are most receptive and least receptive. The French have almost no relationship to their Church. It's very odd to be religious in French society. It's frowned upon. Mind you, I like the French, I try to understand them, but it's very awkward being French, it's awkward to work within the labyrinthian maze which is French society. It is cumbersome, but I wouldn't characterize French relations with her Church to be sophisticated. Yes, there are French intellectuals who recognize the roles her Church played, but the average French citizen has abdicated his religion and the average Frenchman is not very cultivated or sophisticated. That is the greatest myth ever perpetrated.

The least receptive are the very wealthy, not the most educated. The poorest have no time either.

Whatever this post means, it doesn't support the thesis that French are not receptive to Mormonism because of Catholic bad acts. Yes, they are most emphatically not religious. But whatever they currently find objectionable about religion they see in Mormonism. The LDS Church's lack of success in France speaks for itself.

Noah strikes me as one of the more thoughtful and educated folks I've met in these parts, but his assertion which I've paraphrased above speaks for itself in its lack of insight and thoughtfulness. By the way, it's quite possible to retain chauvinistic and parochial attitudes even while living in Europe, Brodie's mother's example notwithstanding. I have a close Mormon relative who has traveled extensively in Europe. I was once at an art museum with him and an accomplished scholar in Rennaissance culture and my relative lamented that Michelangelo painted Catholic themes because the Church forced him to do it. I was embarrased.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Those that gleefully rub their hands in expectation of the downfall of religion, Christianity, and Mormonism will be disappointed. This, I can assure you.

Please don't mischaracterize my views in this manner.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Whatever this post means, it doesn't support the thesis that French are not receptive to Mormonism because of Catholic bad acts. Yes, they are most emphatically not religious. But whatever they currently find objectionable about religion they see in Mormonism. The LDS Church's lack of success in France speaks for itself.

Noah strikes me as one of the more thoughtful and educated folks I've met in these parts, but his assertion which I've paraphrased above speaks for itself in its lack of insight and thoughtfulness. By the way, it's quite possible to retain chauvinistic and parochial attitudes even while living in Europe. I have a close Mormon relative who has traveled extensively in Europe, Brodie's mother's example notwithstanding. I was once at an art museum with him and an accomplished scholar in Rennaissance culture and my relative lamented that Michelangelo painted Catholic themes because the Church forced him to do it. I was embarrased.

The French began their rejection of religion at large by virtue of their initial rejection of Catholicism. I believe DeGaul played a large role in French rejecting religion as well.

The French reject ALL religions, unless you're a French Muslim. The immigrated Muslim retain their religiosity.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Robin

Faith is the opposite of REASON/LOGIC, not 'the intellect.'

Faith will always reduce down to some fundamental dogma that exists outside of universal human experience. That doesn't make it anti-intellectual... it just means that religious genius and faith-based intellectual work are more closely related to poetry and painting than they are to science.

I've got no issue with faith. I understand and believe in the concept. How many here have read Augustine's writings on the subject? What I object to is stuff like representing that a picture of Abraham on a gurny exists in Facsimile No. 1, and of "Kolob" exists in Facsimile No. 2. That's objectionable on many grounds, not the least of which that we owe more than that to the ancient Egyptians.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The French began their rejection of religion at large by virtue of their initial rejection of Catholicism. I believe DeGaul played a large role in French rejecting religion as well.

The French reject ALL religions, unless you're a French Muslim. The immigrated Muslim retain their religiosity.

The French reject religion because of their intellectual traditions, which, whether the common man realizes it or not, have seeped into the fabric of their conciousness. Those traditions are as incompatible with Mormonism as what Catholicism has to offer, probably more so.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Please don't mischaracterize my views in this manner.

The difference is you put my name next to words that I didn't say.

You however read a sentence that does not contain your name, and say that I have put words in your mouth.

Both are revealing. But neither are interesting.