I've thought long and hard about Prop. 8

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I must just have my head completely up my ass on this one, but I flat out don't believe that thar statement.

Yes, the church is either the one church on the earth which has been delegated the keys to divine power and authority or it is not. This much I do agree with. It is what it claims, or it is not.

But assuming that it is what it claims to be, does that mean there is no middle ground as to whether a particular policy, position or teaching is either directly from Jesus Christ or it is not? Really? Everything from Salt Lake is from the mouth of God, the only alternative being that the church is a fraud? I sure hope that isn't true. It sets up as a test a hurdle that not even the true church of God can clear: infallibility.

Someone help me pull my head out here. I wish we would stop saying things like this though. Why is it okay for Joseph to say that the Book of Mormon is the "most true book" (not perfect, but most true) and yet the church must either be perfect or false. No one believes this do they?

I don't think really orthodox mormons believe the Church is infallible. I think they believe that the responsibility of Church Membership is to support the Church, whether right or wrong. That the test is one of loyalty and obedience.

They define sustaining leadership as doing what it asks. That doesn't mean that you can't disagree, protest or whine like Utenation after yet another close loss to the BYU. Sustaining doesn't connote agree with the decisions but rather to do as they ask -- even if it wars against one's private opinions.

Now as for Diamond's opinion on this subject. I think her point is that since none of us really know if society is going to be negatively or positively impacted by the government recognizing homosexual unions to whatever extent, she is going to side with LDS leadership as she believes in their role as watchmen on the watchtowers.

As a recovering conservative mormon who it has taken years to deprogram from my epitome of religous zealotry as a missionary, I just like fake boobs and am grateful the Church hasn't come out in opposition. I am worried that one day they might so I keep trying to convince the wife to get the falsies while the getting is still good, or righteous...if ya know what I mean.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I don't think really orthodox mormons believe the Church is infallible. I think they believe that the responsibility of Church Membership is to support the Church, whether right or wrong. That the test is one of loyalty and obedience.

They define sustaining leadership as doing what it asks. That doesn't mean that you can't disagree, protest or whine like Utenation after yet another close loss to the BYU. Sustaining doesn't connote agree with the decisions but rather to do as they ask -- even if it wars against one's private opinions.

I agree that this is what people think. But that is not what the statement I quoted said. The only reasonable reading of that quote, to me, is that either all counsel is from God or the church is a fraud. That was the point being made. I know that no one actually thinks that (well very few) which is why I wish such things wouldn't be said.

I certainly do respect the notion that it is an act of faith and a show of devotion to God to do something that conflicts with ones conscience because it is asked. I also perceive my own weakness because I know in my heart that I would suffer condemnation before I would do some of the things that have been required of others.