Mormon tribalism has never been weaker

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are the one who doesn't see the larger picture. Romney as president actually harms Mormon tribalism, instead of helping it.

Well you could make that same argument about any aspect of Mormon tribalism or tribalism in general. Bottom line. Not voting for a mainstream, active, popular Mormon is about as anti-tribalism as you can get.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Solon

Exactly.

The bigger emphasis on the temple over the past 60 years, and the development of the infallible "stick to the brethren" leadership are components of this trend. It's quite a departure from the LDS church's 19th century roots.

Go read Mauss' book and you'll sound smarter when you throw out these little provocations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wTB...mbnail#PPP1,M1

Little provocations? Spare me your condescending bullshit.

What distinguishes us as a people is not white shirts and other minutiae like that. What PRIMARILY distinguishes us as a people now are the same things that distinguished us as a people 175 years ago.

Evangelicals don't gear up against us because we have indistinguishable doctrines and practices.

[SeattleUte]

This needs to be said. Tribalism is not a good thing. It's a bad thing. Much of the evils associated with religion stem from tribalist fervor. Welcome to Rome, Mormons.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Well you could make that same argument about any aspect of Mormon tribalism or tribalism in general. Bottom line. Not voting for a mainstream, active, popular Mormon is about as anti-tribalism as you can get.

The danger of Mormonism entering a phase of vying for acceptance from Babylon in unprecedented fashion is MUCH MORE DANGEROUS than any gains to be had from having a Mormon president.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe suddenly as the restoration continues to be de-emphasized, there will be a sudden awakening and the stone cut from the mountain will stop slowing down.

The Book of Mormon's themes contain the idea that churches and tribes wax and wane. It is pretty clear about why they wane. Pride, complacency, materialism, seeking the approval of Babylon.

What does it mean for a believer to be King of Babylon? Is God getting giddy at the prospect?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The danger of Mormonism entering a phase of vying for acceptance from Babylon in unprecedented fashion is MUCH MORE DANGEROUS than any gains to be had from having a Mormon president.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe suddenly as the restoration continues to be de-emphasized, there will be a sudden awakening and the stone cut from the mountain will stop slowing down.

The Book of Mormon's themes contain the idea that churches and tribes wax and wane. It is pretty clear about why they wane. Pride, complacency, materialism, seeking the approval of Babylon.

What does it mean for a believer to be King of Babylon? Is God getting giddy at the prospect?

Maybe the loss of Mormon tribalism is just another mechanism God will use to sift the wheat from the tares.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You lament the death of the tribe while mocking those who would vote for Romney out of tribal instincts.

You look forward gleefully to the prospect of mormons facing the dilemna of an anti-mormon republican nominee, yet you deride those that would be willing to vote for an anti-mormon candidate.

You criticize a pushback against the old prophets, while you show no hesitation to pushback yourself when convenient.

You are outraged at the racist history of the old prophets, but are highly critical of Mitt for expressing negative thoughts about polygamy.

You agonize over mainstreaming while agonizing over drops in convert baptisms. Then you link the two. (you also grossly overstate the mainstreaming, IMO).

And the solution to "saving the tribal identity" is more people attempting to steady the ark?

My head is spinning.

He claims Romney is unprincipled because Mike is unprincipled.

[jay santos]

Mike, I'm a tribalist in every sense of the word. I'm a tribalist when it's not cool to be a tribalist. I'm the BYU geek that sticks out in a land of BYU supporters. I'll pimp Romney knowing it betrays my own personal views on politics.

You could say I'm for "mainstreaming" of the church but I call it a return to the foundations of doctrines in the Book of Mormon and other LDS scripture. Jesus Christ should be the emphasis. There does need to be a shift in works/grace to better match the Book of Mormon. You can call it mainstreaming and dissolution of our identity and brand but I don't see it that way at all. Our tribal aspects are a cultural thing. We must not let any aspect of tribalism affect the truths of the gospel we teach. Tribalism has to do with non-doctrinal issues such as business, entertainment, and politics.

Would you sacrifice truth for tribalism? No. We seek truth and correct doctrine irrespective of how it affects our relation to others.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't push back against the original Mormonism of the prophet, seer, and revelator Joseph Smith. If there is such thing as gnostic Mormonism, I would be an adherent. I am the anti-Jay Santos.

So all other latter-day prophets are fair game, but JS is off-limits somehow? That doesn't strike you as inconsistent?

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Better to contrast the outrage of the average Mormon when someone like me says racism existed and was the source, compared to the absolute lack of any anger at all when Romney criticizes a fundamental aspect of Mormonism contained in the D&C.

But your desire to express outrage at institutional racism requires a climate wherein heterodox views can be freely expressed. And where we can accept a multitude of viewpoints without feeling threatened. I.e., a "big tent" church. It seems to me that a proponent of such an idea would be last one to criticize Mitt for being non-orthodox regarding polygamy.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Mainstreaming will not help gain converts. That is what many don't understand.

I'll take that as your opinion. I am not so sure I agree.

Of course, if you are honest, you will acknowledge the abandonment of polygamy and extending the priesthood to blacks as the two most significant "mainstreaming" events in LDS history.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Mike, I'm a tribalist in every sense of the word. I'm a tribalist when it's not cool to be a tribalist. I'm the BYU geek that sticks out in a land of BYU supporters. I'll pimp Romney knowing it betrays my own personal views on politics.

You could say I'm for "mainstreaming" of the church but I call it a return to the foundations of doctrines in the Book of Mormon and other LDS scripture. Jesus Christ should be the emphasis. There does need to be a shift in works/grace to better match the Book of Mormon. You can call it mainstreaming and dissolution of our identity and brand but I don't see it that way at all. Our tribal aspects are a cultural thing. We must not let any aspect of tribalism affect the truths of the gospel we teach. Tribalism has to do with non-doctrinal issues such as business, entertainment, and politics.

Would you sacrifice truth for tribalism? No. We seek truth and correct doctrine irrespective of how it affects our relation to others.

I am a believer in original Mormonism. I am a Joseph Smith Mormon, not a Covey Mormon, not a Stephen Robinson Mormon, not a Deseret Book Mormon.

We are ballast on opposite ends of the ship. There is a place for everything you said. I personally feel the ship has tipped too far and is now plowing through the water, and I advocate more ballast on my end.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I am a believer in original Mormonism. I am a Joseph Smith Mormon, not a Covey Mormon, not a Stephen Robinson Mormon, not a Deseret Book Mormon.

We are ballast on opposite ends of the ship. There is a place for everything you said. I personally feel the ship has tipped too far and is now plowing through the water, and I advocate more ballast on my end.

So you've finally outed yourself as a mullah?