The Departed

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Only Tolstoy I have read is Anna Karenina. Is it from AK?

More his philosophical musings late in life. He practically started his own religion and the Orthodox Church excomunicated him even though in the end he was kind of a religious hermit and pilgrims would visit him. But I think the idea that God becomes relevant during trying times and at death's door is a recurring theme in both Dostoevsky's and Tolstoy's works.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Solon

Maybe in some respects, but the archaeological or historical arguments for the BoM need something to support them, not just a John Sorenson saying that a lack of horses in America doesn't disprove the book. In my opinion, at least.

What methods of inquiry do you use aside from hypothesis testing?

[Sleeping in EQ]

In my experience there are a few things that help people who come down with the "fever" of the issues and sources you've cited. Some of us here on CG have been faced with the decision of whether or not to walk away. Others are facing that decision right now. Here are a few:

1. A focus on the fruits of Mormonism in my life, as opposed to dwelling on the uncertainty of the roots of the Church.

2. A willingness to accept ambiguity on many issues. My academic training has actually helped me with this.

3. A willingness to not let the mullahs and fundies get me down (at least not in a serious way). The second phase of this is to go about actively deciding what I do and don't think and believe. Jetissoning all the mental gymnastics and non-think can actually feel good. Phase three is being able to appreciate that the ward is filled with good people who mean well despite their shortcomings. I haven't found phase four yet.

4. Getting plugged in to the LDS intellectual scene. Knowing I am not alone is powerful. CG helps many of us in this regard. There are people in every ward who are in very similar situations. They can make great friends.

5. Take seriously what Joseph Smith said about embracing truth wherever you find it. This has lead me to a kind of Mormon universalism, where I'm a faithful heretic.

6. Finding my niche has been important. I served in the primary for four years and loved it. The kids appreciated me and I was insulated from the nonsense going on during the other two hours of the block.

I could keep going, but you get the idea. Wrestling with troubling questions concerning the Church can be very healthy. Faith dies when you stop asking those questions.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Adam

And yet when members see a church devoid of the gifts of the spirit as set forth in Mormon 9 and Moroni 10, they do begin to wonder. And when they comment on the lack of the gifts they see, they are shouted down as apostates and ingrates and told to shut up and sit down and stop making trouble that the lack of miracles they see is only a result of their own unbelief. And then when they leave, some lament and wonder what could have been done differently. Sigh.

#1. The problem is you come across as angry, both in tone and style.

Take it from one of the masters of pissing people off with his over aggressive tone at times. The louder you yell and the more incendiary you deliberately try to be,,,,,the less people hear and want to hear.

As a former victim of abuse I'm personally offended that someone like you who claims to be so politically correct and sensitive towards others, so flippantly and casually throws the word abuse around when it comes to the church. I'm kindly asking you to re-think before you make those statements again.

You are not a victim.

#2. Given your consistent history of baiting others and carefully worded plans of attacking the church, its policies, its leaders, its doctrine, its members, you've really lost any right to continue your charade as a victim.

Change your tone and approach some and you might be taken more seriously.

[Snowcat]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

In my experience there are a few things that help people who come down with the "fever" of the issues and sources you've cited. Some of us here on CG have been faced with the decision of whether or not to walk away. Others are facing that decision right now. Here are a few:

1. A focus on the fruits of Mormonism in my life, as opposed to dwelling on the uncertainty of the roots of the Church.

2. A willingness to accept ambiguity on many issues. My academic training has actually helped me with this.

3. A willingness to not let the mullahs and fundies get me down (at least not in a serious way). The second phase of this is to go about actively deciding what you do and don't think and believe. Jetissoning all the mental gymnastics and non-think can actually feel good. Phase three is being able to appreciate that the ward is filled with good people who mean well despite their shortcomings. I haven't found phase four yet.

4. Getting plugged in to the LDS intellectual scene. Knowing your not alone is powerful. CG helps many of us in this regard. There are people in every ward who are in very similar situations. They can make great friends.

5. Take seriously what Joseph Smith said about embracing truth wherever you find it. This had lead me to a kind of Mormon universalism, where I'm a faithful heretic.

6. Finding my niche has been important. I served in the primary for four years and loved it. The kids appreciated me and I was insulated from the nonsense going on during the other two hours of the block.

I could keep going, but you get the idea. Wrestling with troubling questions concerning the Church can be very healthy. Faith dies when you stop asking those questions.

Interesting thoughts.

[Flystripper]

And here I thought this was going to be about the Irish mob in South Boston. On a side note, I hear it is easier to leave the Irish mob than leave the church. Hitmen are not nearly as determined as hometeachers.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

3. A willingness to not let the mullahs and fundies get me down (at least not in a serious way). The second phase of this is to go about actively deciding what I do and don't think and believe. Jetissoning all the mental gymnastics and non-think can actually feel good. Phase three is being able to appreciate that the ward is filled with good people who mean well despite their shortcomings. I haven't found phase four yet.

Remind me what phase four is.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Remind me what phase four is.

Scoutmaster.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Remind me what phase four is.

40 years on the activities committee!

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Adam

You really need to read Bonner Ritchie on institutional abuse in the church. I am sorry that you are a victim of abuse--it sounds like you are talking about something other than institutional abuse. That there are more horrible kinds of abuse, does not mean that those who study and care about the interactions between the requirements of large organizations and the circumstances of individuals part of those organizations need to abandon the language they have been using for decades.

Organizational abuse exists. Even in the church. It is unavoidable. It does not mean the church isn't true and doesn't mean you should leave the church. Ignoring it doesnt help.

I appreciate the reference, but my point regarding the way you approach things still stands and is unchanged.

The way you approach things clearly indicates you're interested in getting your points across via shockvalue and painting yourself as a victim and then you wonder why people react the way to you they do.

Drop the facade and you'll be taken more seriously.