Intervention show--gay LDS guy

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

It's sad, but really what can the church do differently without changing doctrine?

I'm still not convinced that people are born gay. I think that they probably develop those tendencies very early on though. I read an article about people who succumb to fear, and lead lives that are limited by their fears have a portion of their brain that actually physically grows bigger. Additionally in this little training class I took they said that children who grow up in a home with domestic violence brains develop differently, and they all exhibit similar issues as they get older. So I wonder if being gay is not something along those same lines. It's just a thought.

I'm not sure why any of that matters as far as born gay or not.

I think the church could do a lot without changing doctrine. I don't think you'd see a person struggling with a coffee habit give the same emotion as a gay Mormon when it comes to feeling ostracized.

[BoylenOver]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I'm still not convinced that people are born gay. I think that they probably develop those tendencies very early on though. I read an article about people who succumb to fear, and lead lives that are limited by their fears have a portion of their brain that actually physically grows bigger. Additionally in this little training class I took they said that children who grow up in a home with domestic violence brains develop differently, and they all exhibit similar issues as they get older. So I wonder if being gay is not something along those same lines. It's just a thought.

It's a combination of nature and nurture. There's a continuum of 100% hetero and 100% homo, and through a combination of genes and the environment someone is raised, that determines their sexual preferences. It depends in each situation which is more influential.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm not sure why any of that matters as far as born gay or not.

I think the church could do a lot without changing doctrine. I don't think you'd see a person struggling with a coffee habit give the same emotion as a gay Mormon when it comes to feeling ostracized.

No, but to state the obvious here, drinking coffee doesn't carry the same social stigmas and isn't as politically divisive as being gay.

I'm not saying we can't be more compassionate, but let's be fair here: there is a vocal, public element of the gay community that is hostile and in-your-face. It's not surprising that some people may have a pejorative reaction to someone who identifies themselves in whatever degree with that movement.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what is lame is when you say "those coloreds have a lot of potential to be educated someday."

Did I say that?

I'm of the opinion that it's better to explore the issue honestly, than to ignore it or mask your feelings with fake pc language. I believe we're all bigots and racists, the only measure is how maliciously you do it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

No, but to state the obvious here, drinking coffee doesn't carry the same social stigmas and isn't as politically divisive as being gay.

I'm not saying we can't be more compassionate, but let's be fair here: there is a vocal, public element of the gay community that is hostile and in-your-face. It's not surprising that some people may have a pejorative reaction to someone who identifies themselves in whatever degree with that movement.

BDB said the only way the church could change would be by changing its doctrine. I disagree. Doctrine is that drinking coffee and homosexual behavior is both a sin. Yet one group feels completely more ostracized.

[BoylenOver]

Originally Posted by jay santos

BDB said the only way the church could change would be by changing its doctrine. I disagree. Doctrine is that drinking coffee and homosexual behavior is both a sin. Yet one group feels completely more ostracized.

I pity the coffee-drinking flamer who wears colored dress shirts on Sundays.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm not saying we can't be more compassionate, but let's be fair here: there is a vocal, public element of the gay community that is hostile and in-your-face. It's not surprising that some people may have a pejorative reaction to someone who identifies themselves in whatever degree with that movement.

Let's be fair: radical gay elements (if you want to call them that) and the far right are in embrace. Their discourse serves the needs of both.

The reasonable middle is ignored.

Of course, you are the right winger who is yelling loudly about radical gays in this thread. Why? Because it serves your interests.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by BoylenOver

It's a combination of nature and nurture. There's a continuum of 100% hetero and 100% homo, and through a combination of genes and the environment someone is raised, that determines their sexual preferences. It depends in each situation which is more influential.

I agree with this. Go look on Craig's list under "women seeking women." I once saw an ad that said, "I already have a man. I just need a woman's touch." You can argue that she's not really gay, but you get the point.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

BDB said the only way the church could change would be by changing its doctrine. I disagree. Doctrine is that drinking coffee and homosexual behavior is both a sin. Yet one group feels completely more ostracized.

... illustrating another reason why it's a poor comparison: to drink or not drink coffee is a choice, whereas the choice of homosexuality is hotly, hotly debated. Maybe if there were some claim that folks were born with an irreversible, un-rehabilitatable (is that a word?) coffee addiction, then we might be getting close.

The primary reason homosexuals feel ostracized in the church is because the church's doctrine explicitly denies them the opportunity to act on those desires--desires some of them claim are God-given and/or that they have no control over. This is the chief complaint about the church's doctrine on gays. And you can see how people unable to think rationally on the issue (read: Mike Waters) react when you suggest trying to "rehab" a gay person.

I think BDB's point is a fair one. We CAN be more compassionate and understanding, but the thorn for gay folks vis-a-vis the church IS the doctrine.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

... illustrating another reason why it's a poor comparison: to drink or not drink coffee is a choice, whereas the choice of homosexuality is hotly, hotly debated. Maybe if there were some claim that folks were born with an irreversible, un-rehabilitatable (is that a word?) coffee addiction, then we might be getting close.

The primary reason homosexuals feel ostracized in the church is because the church's doctrine explicitly denies them the opportunity to act on those desires. This is the chief complaint about the church's doctrine on gays. And you can see how people unable to think rationally on the issue (read: Mike Waters) react when you suggest trying to "rehab" a gay person.

I think BDB's point is a fair one. We CAN be more compassionate and understanding, but the thorn for gay folks vis-a-vis the church IS the doctrine.

I see the point and agree to an extent. I need to think about it some more, but I can't help but think there are some large steps the church can make to lessen the pain gay members feel.