How many true churches are there?

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by Quisqueyano

I would just like to address the content of most of your questions.
I think that your arguments are failed from the beginning based solely on definitions. You continue to use the terms salvation and exaltation interchangeabley. They are as interchangeable as justification and sanctification.
Also, I think you would do well to really understand the definition of the priesthood that we currently use for church administration. How it realtes to Gods power and the temple. it appears from your posts that you are taking a shot but falling well short of the mark. Almost as if you are looking at the gospel through a straw.
Just my opinion of what you have posted. Take it for what it's worth.

Prepare for a response containing words such as "troll", "hedgehog", and "vitriol".

[Quisqueyano]

Originally Posted by Stick It In Him

Prepare for a response containing words such as "troll", "hedgehog", and "vitriol".

That's the point. I am taking his inquiries at face value. I am open to frank discussion about gospel subjects. it just seems that he is asking the wrong question. How can you get the right answer from a wrong question?

[Archaea]

Interesting discussion.

The discussion point that doesn't make a lot of sense is the question of authority. It's either a valid point, or there is no authority and the Church isn't valid.

When you started to question if the Priesthood isn't more than kindness, it sounds as if there is no basis for any truth. With that line of thinking, there is no truth.

Faith is a manifold item, blending concepts, whirliing around space, perhaps all in one and one for all. It is dynamic, not static. You either feed it or it diminishes.

As a side note, people say you can intellect your way out of the Church or emote your way out. It seems there is at least a third way; if something so emotionally devastating occurs that one no longer cares what happens. I imagine this is actually a more common way than is believed.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What is not stated is the counter viewpoint, which is that people can actually have spiritual experiences that strengthen their testimonies.

I have a friend who has left the church. If you ask him about the real nitty gritty spiritual stuff--the Holy Ghost stuff--he says, "I don't have an answer for that." IOTW, he does not deny his experience, and hasn't reconciled those experiences with his current path.

Versus my brother who says "I made all that stuff up, it came from within. There was no heavenly source."

I think you are right. Some spiritual experiences will strengthen testimonies for some people. Some doubts can be resolved. Still, there is a particular brand of doubt that is especially resiliant to religious dogma. Unlike your brother or your other friend, I don't doubt or deny the existence or significance of spiritual experience. I simply doubt my own ability to INTERPRET that experience with any degree of specificity that would allow me to confidently pick one dogma over another.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't think my brother is lying. He believes what he is saying. But at some level it must nag at him.

It probably nags at him less than you think.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I had a conversation with Robin a long time ago, where we argued over the basis of belief. I was a proponent of the heart, that is, of spiritual feelings. He was a proponent of the mind, of rationality, of "clear thought." I believed we had fundamentally different ways of approaching belief in the church. I believed then and I believe now, if your foundation does not rest upon the Holy Ghost, your house will be washed away.

I know Robin will have a response to this, that I have mischaracterized his beliefs, and that the Holy Spirit has led him in a different direction, etc.

If we are talking about RELIGIOUS BELIEF, then I think your description of our conversation and our general attitudes is fairly accurate. Reason prevents me from taking the logical leap that allows some to pick one religion/dogma over another.

If we are talking about belief in general, or approaches to life and spiritual experience, I think our roles are pretty much the opposite, and you become the man of 'reason,' and I am more the 'mystic.'

Anyhow, you are welcome to characterize our approaches in any way you find personally usefull.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

So Yale led you to apostacy. The U of U is very good at that, and I imagine Yale must be devastating.

Yale was just the first place where I met a lot of members of the church who were willing to follow their hearts where ever that might lead, even if that took them out of the church. It had less to do with Yale, and more to do with the kind of student that Yale tends to attract. I think fusnik would have fit in and felt very happy and comfortable in the student ward that served Yale.

As for Yale leading to financial ruin, I will simply quote President Bush in his response to Putin's criticism of democracy in Iraq, "Just wait."

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by Archaea

When you started to question if the Priesthood isn't more than kindness, it sounds as if there is no basis for any truth. With that line of thinking, there is no truth.

How so? The Old Testament is ripe with protocols, rituals, passages, lineages, etc, Jesus came said he fulfilled all things prior and commissioned all to simply, love God above all else, and love your neighbor as thyself.

Interestingly enough priesthood is the power to act in the stead of God, to bind on earth and in heaven, are love and compassion not the real ways to 'act in the stead of God?'

Is love not what binds us eternally? Love is what the Holy Spirit of Promise is, it's the eternal and universal force that drives the world. I remember thinking on my mission that the power of the priesthood was the power to change molecules, to commission sickness to dissipate, to command the angels, in reality, it's the commission to love unceasingly and eternally those we know, and those we do not know.

Lest we forget, it is not tokens, nor signs, that garner us entrance into the presence of God, it's unceasing love and devotion to ourselves and our families.

This in no way dissipates or lessens the dogma of the LDS church, I think the doctrine found in canon and in the words of our prophets current and of years gone by speak the language of God.

[ewth8tr]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

How so? The Old Testament is ripe with protocols, rituals, passages, lineages, etc, Jesus came said he fulfilled all things prior and commissioned all to simply, love God above all else, and love your neighbor as thyself.

Interestingly enough priesthood is the power to act in the stead of God, to bind on earth and in heaven, are love and compassion not the real ways to 'act in the stead of God?'

Is love not what binds us eternally? Love is what the Holy Spirit of Promise is, it's the eternal and universal force that drives the world. I remember thinking on my mission that the power of the priesthood was the power to change molecules, to commission sickness to dissipate, to command the angels, in reality, it's the commission to love unceasingly and eternally those we know, and those we do not know.

Lest we forget, it is not tokens, nor signs, that garner us entrance into the presence of God, it's unceasing love and devotion to ourselves and our families.

This in no way dissipates or lessens the dogma of the LDS church, I think the doctrine found in canon and in the words of our prophets current and of years gone by speak the language of God.

so how do you tie this in with the Restoration that you say you believe in? So John the Baptist came down and gave Jospeh Smith love? Peter, James, and John confered love on Joseph Smith?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by ewth8tr

so how do you tie this in with the Restoration that you say you believe in? So John the Baptist came down and gave Jospeh Smith love? Peter, James, and John confered love on Joseph Smith?

It didn't actually happen. It's an allegory of man receiving God's love to spread to others.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

How so? The Old Testament is ripe with protocols, rituals, passages, lineages, etc, Jesus came said he fulfilled all things prior and commissioned all to simply, love God above all else, and love your neighbor as thyself.

Interestingly enough priesthood is the power to act in the stead of God, to bind on earth and in heaven, are love and compassion not the real ways to 'act in the stead of God?'

Is love not what binds us eternally? Love is what the Holy Spirit of Promise is, it's the eternal and universal force that drives the world. I remember thinking on my mission that the power of the priesthood was the power to change molecules, to commission sickness to dissipate, to command the angels, in reality, it's the commission to love unceasingly and eternally those we know, and those we do not know.

Lest we forget, it is not tokens, nor signs, that garner us entrance into the presence of God, it's unceasing love and devotion to ourselves and our families.

This in no way dissipates or lessens the dogma of the LDS church, I think the doctrine found in canon and in the words of our prophets current and of years gone by speak the language of God.

You're missing one very big link.

The exercise of authority must be one of love, compassion and kindness, but the exercise must receive permission.

Otherwise, anybody could say, hey, I'm being kind, hence I'm exercising priesthood authority. This is where Derrida is correct. I don't know if I'm interpreting you correctly. Because your markers have meaning attached to other conversations with people arguing similar, but not identical ideas.

Yes we evolve within the Gospel and thus see it from other perspectives. However, you are missing the link.

God must give permission. Otherwise all there is are kind acts.

In the OT, one could not kindly sacrifice a goat on a altar made by one's own hands; one had to go to the priest, Levite that was, and have the priest offer it up. Now, whether one received expiation of sin, depended upon one's heart and how one dealt with neighbors, but proper authorization IS necessary and it does NOT boil down simply to kindness.

It requires proper Permission and Kindness.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

How so? The Old Testament is ripe with protocols, rituals, passages, lineages, etc, Jesus came said he fulfilled all things prior and commissioned all to simply, love God above all else, and love your neighbor as thyself.

Interestingly enough priesthood is the power to act in the stead of God, to bind on earth and in heaven, are love and compassion not the real ways to 'act in the stead of God?'

Is love not what binds us eternally? Love is what the Holy Spirit of Promise is, it's the eternal and universal force that drives the world. I remember thinking on my mission that the power of the priesthood was the power to change molecules, to commission sickness to dissipate, to command the angels, in reality, it's the commission to love unceasingly and eternally those we know, and those we do not know.

Lest we forget, it is not tokens, nor signs, that garner us entrance into the presence of God, it's unceasing love and devotion to ourselves and our families.

This in no way dissipates or lessens the dogma of the LDS church, I think the doctrine found in canon and in the words of our prophets current and of years gone by speak the language of God.

I will go ahead and throw a log on the fire...

... by what authority did Alma (sr.) baptize? Mosiah 18:12 seems to suggest that his authority came from his desire and from his asking, "O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body." Alma then goes on to baptize HIMSELF, along with Helam.

I have heard different tortured explanations for this, but the most simple explanation is this -- Alma asked for the authority and he got it... no laying on of hands needed.