My opinion on the change in the honor code

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's really not an honor code. It's just a code. Let's stop using the word "honor" because it's misleading.

There's no honor in keeping the terms of a signed or verbal agreement with another party?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

There's no honor in keeping the terms of a signed or verbal agreement with another party?

The word "honor" means that it is a matter of self-governance. That is, it is a matter of "honor".

A code of conduct is an externally-enforced code. BYU does not have an honor code. THey have a code of conduct.

Please do not be dim about this.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The word "honor" means that it is a matter of self-governance. That is, it is a matter of "honor".

A code of conduct is an externally-enforced code. BYU does not have an honor code. THey have a code of conduct.

Please do not be dim about this.

OK, if you really want to get hung up on the semantics.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Sorry, but I don't buy your assertion that those are equivalent arguments. I think my earlier example of conduct in the workplace is a better analogy.

I don't believe it makes sense to police honor. If you do that, you are essentially saying, "we don't trust you, as you have no honor." I appreciate the Church's approach far greater than the administrative bullcrap which the HCO serves for BYU. The Honor Code was not developed for an honorable reason. Its HCO was not developed for a charitable or Gospel reason, but in fact was developed for deviant and devious reasons not fully disclosed by its creator to the Board of Trustees. By the time they realized its true function, it was too late and they just chose to fight another fight.

This is another example of BYU using mechanism which are counter-intuitive and contrary to Gospel principles.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

OK, if you really want to get hung up on the semantics.

Semantics matter.

It should be termed, "Student Code of Conduct enforced by Fucking Nazis from Hell."

And no I was never subjected to their demonic devices.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

The idea of "policing" the honor code is pretty unique to BYU. Virginia, for example, has an honor code, but the students are expected to be self-enforcers. You can say, "that is dumb- then people will just cheat and break the rules," but really all you are saying is that BYU trusts its students less than Virginia does to do what they are supposed to do.

Virginia's honor code is a lot more about academic honor than anything else. BYU's is all encompassing.

[Indy Coug]

Well then dispense with the entire charade and get rid of any Honor Code/Code of Conduct then. I'm just objecting to this vacuous notion that you can have a meaningful Honor Code/Code of Conduct if there is no mechanism in place to exact accountability for failing to abide by it.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Well then dispense with the entire charade and get rid of any Honor Code/Code of Conduct then. I'm just objecting to this vacuous notion that you can have a meaningful Honor Code/Code of Conduct if there is no mechanism in place to exact accountability for failing to abide by it.

I'm sure that most schools have mechanisms for expelling students. THat is, students must meet a bare minimum of conduct. THings like cheating, fraud, violence, etc.

An honor code is something that is voluntary, that one commits to on one's "honor."

What is particularly offensive about this BYU code of conduct is stuff that has nothing to do with righteousness or moral living or being a good citizen.

Like how long your sideburns are.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Well then dispense with the entire charade and get rid of any Honor Code/Code of Conduct then. I'm just objecting to this vacuous notion that you can have a meaningful Honor Code/Code of Conduct if there is no mechanism in place to exact accountability for failing to abide by it.

if you want enforcement, then some sort of Student Council, with a faculty advisor makes more sense than peeping Toms from Salem, Utah.

I've got this image of some, dorky looking Utahn from Hurricane, Utah, checking out to see if certain lads really were jacking off to the Victoria Secret Catalogue as he sits in the corner jacking off to the SI swimsuit edition.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by Archaea

if you want enforcement, then some sort of Student Council, with a faculty advisor makes more sense than peeping Toms from Salem, Utah.

Hey, my wife is from Salem, watch the Salem hate...