I was sort of baffled by the black guy that quoted John Taylor

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I don't want to toot my own horn here. I've no doubt screwed up many things for investigators over the years. But there have been times (one as recent as two weeks ago) where my knowing the nitty gritty of the Church's racist priesthood policy has been crucial in black investigators joining the Church. The missionaries have brought me over to talk to black investigators who struggle with the Church's history. Sometimes the missionaries explanations, while well intended, sound like excuse making and dissembling to black people.

Really? What do you say to them about it?

[nikuman]

My mom gave me a putatative transcript of a talk by a Seventy (Mark E. Peterson? Could be, but it was given in the 60s, so maybe not) given in a mission conference that essentially explained race in terms of the War in Heaven. There were three groups of people - follow Christ, fence sitters, oppose Christ. The oppose Christ group were cast out (the "third part"). The follow Christ people are the white folk. The fence sitters are the black/oriental/hispanic folk. But nothing is predetermined - black folk can become white folk in the hereafter if they're good.

I doubt you'd hear anybody say that today. I'm also not sure that the talk was authentic, as the White Horse prophecy comes from far more reliable sources and I'm not exactly on that bandwagon either.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It is very dissatisfying to a missionary to reply to the blacks and priesthood issue with "we don't know why this was the case." Much more satisfying to have a convincing answer.

The GAs have left a void and it is being filled by people like SIEQ and myself. I wrote an article for the Student Review about the issue (positing that it was due to racism), and when the SR had a website, I was told it was the most accessed article/issue on the site. Members really hunger for an answer.

I don't know if I am right. But I have heard nothing that convinces me otherwise.

I think it's pretty cool that you and SEIQ have found a way to answer the question that will help to alleviate the concerns about that topic.

Is that paper something you would mind posting on here? I'd really like to read it. That Blacks and Priesthood topic is one I've never been very good at explaining.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Really? What do you say to them about it?

I 2nd this. I'd like to learn and read what you've got on the subject.

Thanks.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It is very dissatisfying to a missionary to reply to the blacks and priesthood issue with "we don't know why this was the case." Much more satisfying to have a convincing answer.

The GAs have left a void and it is being filled by people like SIEQ and myself. I wrote an article for the Student Review about the issue (positing that it was due to racism), and when the SR had a website, I was told it was the most accessed article/issue on the site. Members really hunger for an answer.

I don't know if I am right. But I have heard nothing that convinces me otherwise.

I remember reading that article. Don't remember much about it, other than it was a good piece. You should post it here.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Diamond, to answer your question, and I may be mistaken, but I believe these were the quotes referred to...

Whoa! Where did our resident Protestant get a hold of the Journal of Discourses? It's almost like you have had training to find information inside of books.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Really? What do you say to them about it?

I haven't edited this, but this will give you a sense of what I say.

When they’ve heard about the policy and 1978 and all that I always start with something like:

“I’m just speaking for myself here, but the policy was racist, was an affront to God, should never have happened, and I’m appalled that it lasted as long as it did. If you want to discuss the details, I’m someone who can do that with you, but if you’d rather not, that’s great too.”

The conversation often goes into things like:

1. Quotes that investigators have found on the Internet. The fact that I pull out the quote for discussion builds credibility like you can't imagine.

2. Church leaders were reading their own cultural biases into scriptures (I like to bring up Peter’s struggle with Gentiles. If Peter could discriminate, anyone can). They were drawing on folklore and racist stereotypes prevalent among many whites.

3. “There is a residue of racism in the Church, most all of it at the grassroots level. Some of the members have older books on their shelves that still have racist statements here or there, and the way one Mormon or another thinks about the racist policy might not sit well with you. There’s been no official explanation. The topic comes up occasionally, and once every four years in Sunday School, but most everyone will be sensitive about the subject. Many Mormons, and especially North American and white Mormons, have a strong desire to overcome the Church's racist past. You won’t encounter a lot of racism in the Church today, but you can expect a little. A few people might be unintentionally racist out of a misguided desire to purge their own guilt (someone might ask you about Ebonics or Southern food at a ward picnic, but what they’re trying to say is “You’re black and that’s OK with me.” They don’t usually see that they’re stereotyping.) But those situations will be few and far between. The overwhelming majority of Mormons will be loving and kind. They’ll have you over to their houses for dinner and greet you warmly when they meet you in public (a big issue for black people is white people’s two-facedness). You’re likely to have callings where people of all races will be assisting, sustaining, and working right beside you.”

4. The following as per the investigator's concerns: Joseph Smith’s more open views, the issues under McKay’s presidency, Walker Lewis and Elijah Able (and the exemption of Able's descendents from the ban), the early believers in Nigeria, the events surrounding the Sao Paulo temple, James E. Faust’s service in President Kennedy’s racial harmony coalition, Hugh B. Brown’s opposition to the policy, changes to the 1981 edition of the BoM, the article against interracial marriages that was front and center in the issue of the Church News that “announced” the 1978 revelation by burying it in the back (revolting, that), Spencer W. Kimball and so on.

5. I recommend the Genesis Group and steer them to supportive Black and Mormon websites if they seem interested.



I highly recommend Mauss' article: "Dispelling the Curse of Cain: Or, How to Explain the Old Priesthood Ban Without Looking Ridiculous." Just click on the article's title (you can even print it!):

http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazi...-issue-134.asp



I also recommend the books:

Black and Mormon--Bringhurst & Smith
All Abraham's Children--Mauss

There's a ton of great Dialogue (especially Lester Bush) and Sunstone articles too, but I'll let you search for those.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I also recommend the books:

Black and Mormon--Bringhurst & Smith

I think I own this book. I haven't read it yet though. A friend gave it to me because he knew I was interested in the topic. He had never read it either though. I've flipped through it a few times, and read little snippets here and there. I guess I should take some time to actually sit down and read through it.

Good post by the way, very interesting. I'll try and remember some of that stuff for the next time someone asks me about it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by nikuman

My mom gave me a putatative transcript of a talk by a Seventy (Mark E. Peterson? Could be, but it was given in the 60s, so maybe not) given in a mission conference that essentially explained race in terms of the War in Heaven. There were three groups of people - follow Christ, fence sitters, oppose Christ. The oppose Christ group were cast out (the "third part"). The follow Christ people are the white folk. The fence sitters are the black/oriental/hispanic folk. But nothing is predetermined - black folk can become white folk in the hereafter if they're good.

I doubt you'd hear anybody say that today. I'm also not sure that the talk was authentic, as the White Horse prophecy comes from far more reliable sources and I'm not exactly on that bandwagon either.

Attributed to Alvin Dyer, 1961, mission conference in Norway. One of the most disgusting things I've ever read.

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I haven't edited this, but this will give you a sense of what I say.

When they’ve heard about the policy and 1978 and all that I always start with something like:

“I’m just speaking for myself here, but the policy was racist, was an affront to God, should never have happened, and I’m appalled that it lasted as long as it did. If you want to discuss the details, I’m someone who can do that with you, but if you’d rather not, that’s great too.”

The conversation often goes into things like:

1. Quotes that investigators have found on the Internet. The fact that I pull out the quote for discussion builds credibility like you can't imagine.

2. Church leaders were reading their own cultural biases into scriptures (I like to bring up Peter’s struggle with Gentiles. If Peter could discriminate, anyone can). They were drawing on folklore and racist stereotypes prevalent among many whites.

3. “There is a residue of racism in the Church, most all of it at the grassroots level. Some of the members have older books on their shelves that still have racist statements here or there, and the way one Mormon or another thinks about the racist policy might not sit well with you. There’s been no official explanation. The topic comes up occasionally, and once every four years in Sunday School, but most everyone will be sensitive about the subject. Many Mormons, and especially North American and white Mormons, have a strong desire to overcome the Church's racist past. You won’t encounter a lot of racism in the Church today, but you can expect a little. A few people might be unintentionally racist out of a misguided desire to purge their own guilt (someone might ask you about Ebonics or Southern food at a ward picnic, but what they’re trying to say is “You’re black and that’s OK with me.” They don’t usually see that they’re stereotyping.) But those situations will be few and far between. The overwhelming majority of Mormons will be loving and kind. They’ll have you over to their houses for dinner and greet you warmly when they meet you in public (a big issue for black people is white people’s two-facedness). You’re likely to have callings where people of all races will be assisting, sustaining, and working right beside you.”

4. The following as per the investigator's concerns: Joseph Smith’s more open views, the issues under McKay’s presidency, Walker Lewis and Elijah Able (and the exemption of Able's descendents from the ban), the early believers in Nigeria, the events surrounding the Sao Paulo temple, James E. Faust’s service in President Kennedy’s racial harmony coalition, Hugh B. Brown’s opposition to the policy, changes to the 1981 edition of the BoM, the article against interracial marriages that was front and center in the issue of the Church News that “announced” the 1978 revelation by burying it in the back (revolting, that), Spencer W. Kimball and so on.

5. I recommend the Genesis Group and steer them to supportive Black and Mormon websites if they seem interested.



I highly recommend Mauss' article: "Dispelling the Curse of Cain: Or, How to Explain the Old Priesthood Ban Without Looking Ridiculous." Just click on the article's title (you can even print it!):

http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazi...-issue-134.asp



I also recommend the books:

Black and Mormon--Bringhurst & Smith
All Abraham's Children--Mauss

There's a ton of great Dialogue (especially Lester Bush) and Sunstone articles too, but I'll let you search for those.

Great explanation. To me I really believe the only reason for the ban was racism of the leaders. This doesn't shake my faith, because I believe our leaders are subject to mistakes.