Kinderhook plates (quoting HC)

[All-American]

372Comment of the Prophtet on the Kinderhook Plates.

372I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

372I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.

372I quote the following editorial from the Times and Seasons:—

372 - 373Ancient Records.

372 - 373Circumstances are daily transpiring which give additional testimony to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. A few years ago, although supported by indubitable, unimpeachable testimony, it was looked upon in the same light by the world in general, and by the religious world in particular, as the expedition of Columbus to this continent was by the different courts that he visited, and laid his project before. The literati looked upon his expedition as wild and visionary, they suspected very much the integrity of his pretensions, and looked upon him—to say the least—as a fool, for entertaining such wild and visionary views. The royal courts aided by geographers, thought it was impossible that another continent should or could exist; and they were assisted in their views by the learned clergy, who, to put the matter beyond all doubt, stated that it was contrary to Scripture; that the apostles preached to all the world, and that as they did not came to America, it was impossible that there should be any such place. Thus at variance with the opinions of the great, in opposition to science and religion, he set sail, and actually came to America; it was no dream, no fiction; but a solid reality; and however unphilosophical and infidel the notion might be, men had to believe it; and it was soon found out that it would agree both with religion and philosophy.

373So when the Book of Mormon first made its appearance among men, it was looked upon by many as a wild speculation, and that it was dangerous to the interest and happiness of the religious world. But when it was found to teach virtue, honesty, integrity, and pure religion, this objection was laid aside as being untenable.

373We were then told that the inhabitants of this continent were and always had been a rude, barbarous race, uncouth, unlettered, and without civilization. But when they were told of the various relics that have been found indicative of civilization, intelligence, and learning,—when they were told of the wealth, architecture, and splendor of ancient Mexico,—when recent developments proved beyond a doubt that there are ancient ruins in Central America, which, in point of magnificence, beauty, strength, and architectural design, vie with any of the most splendid ruins on the Asiatic Continent,—when they could trace the fine delineations of the sculptor's chisel on the beautiful statue, the mysterious hieroglyphic, and the unknown character, they began to believe that a wise, powerful, intelligent, and scientific race had inhabited this continent; but still it was improbable—nay almost impossible, notwithstanding the testimony of history to the contrary, that anything like plates could have been used anciently, particularly among this people.

373The following letter and certificate will perhaps have a tendency to convince the skeptical that such things have been used and that even the obnoxious Book of Mormon may be true. And as the people in Columbus' day were obliged to believe that there was such a place as America, so will the people in this day be obliged to believe, however reluctantly, that there may have been such plates as those from which the Book of Mormon was translated.

373Mr. Smith has had those plates, what his opinion concerning them is, we have not yet ascertained. The gentleman that owns them has taken them away, or we should have given a fac-simile of the plates and characters in this number. We are informed however, that he purposes returning with them for translation, if so, we may be able yet to furnish our readers with it.

373 - 374It will be seen by the annexed statement of the Quincy Whig, that there are more dreamers and money-diggers than Joseph Smith in the world; and the worthy editor is obliged to acknowledge that this circumstance will go a good way to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. He further states that "if Joseph Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent than any man living." We think that he has done that already in translating and publishing the Book of Mormon, and would advise the gentleman and all interested to read for themselves and understand. We have no doubt, however, but Mr. Smith will be able to translate them.

374To the editor of the Times and Seasons.

374On the 16th of April last, a respectable merchant, by the name of Robert Wiley, commenced digging in a large mound near this place; he excavated to the depth of ten feet and came to rock. About that time the rain began to fall, and he abandoned the work.

374

375 - 376On the 23rd, he and quite a number of the citizens, with myself, repaired to the mound; and after making ample opening, we found plenty of rock, the most of which appeared as though it had been strongly burned; and after removing full two feet of said rock, we found plenty of charcoal and ashes; also human bones that appeared as though they had been burned; and near the encephalon a bundle was found that consisted of six plates of brass of a bell shape, each having a hole near the small end, and a ring through them all, and clasped with two clasps. The rings and clasps appeared to be iron very much oxydated. The plates appeared first to be copper, and had the appearance of being covered with characters.

375 - 376

It was agreed by the company that I should cleanse the plates. Accordingly I took them to my house, washed them with soap and water and a woolen cloth; but, finding them not yet cleansed, I treated them with dilute sulphuric acid, which made them perfectly clean, on which it appeared that they were completely covered with hieroglyphics that none as yet have been able to read.

376

377Wishing that the world might know the hidden things as fast as they come to light, I was induced to state the facts, hoping that you would give it an insertion in your excellent paper; for we all feel anxious to know the true meaning of the plates, and publishing the facts might lead to the true translation.

377They were found, I judged, more than twelve feet below the surface of the top of the mound.

377I am, most respectfully, a citizen of Kinderhook,

377W. P. Harris, M. D.

377We, the citizens of Kinderhook, whose names are annexed, do certify and declare that on the 23rd of April, 1843, while excavating a large mound in this vicinity, Mr. R. Wiley took from said mound six brass plates of a bell shape, covered with ancient characters. Said plates were very much oxydated. The bands and rings on said plates mouldered into dust on a slight pressure.

377Robert Wiley, W. Longnecker, Geo. Deckenson,

377Fayette Grubb, W. Fugate, W. P. Harris,

377J. R. Sharp, G. W. F. Ward, Ira S. Curtis,

377(From the Quincy Whig.)

377Singular Discovery.—Material for Another Mormon Book.

377A Mr. J. Roberts of Pike County, called upon us last Monday with a written description of a discovery which was recently made near Kinderhook, in that county. We have not room for his communication at length, and will give so much of a summary of it, as will enable the reader to form a pretty correct opinion of the discovery made.

377It appeared that a young man by the name of Wiley, a resident in Kinderhook, dreamed three nights in succession, that in a certain mound In the vicinity, there were treasures concealed. Impressed with the strange occurrence of dreaming the same dream three nights in succession, he came to the conclusion to satisfy his mind by digging into the mound. For fear of being laughed at, if he made others acquainted with his design he went by himself and labored diligently one day in pursuit of the supposed treasure, by sinking a hole in the center of a mound.

377Finding it quite laborious, he invited others to assist him. A company of ten or twelve repaired to the mound and assisted in digging out the shaft commenced by Wiley. After penetrating the mound about eleven feet, they came to a bed of limestone that had been subjected to the action of fire. They removed the stones, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found six brass plates, secured and fastened together by two iron wires, but which were so decayed that they readily crumbled to dust upon being handled.

377 - 378The plates were so completely covered with rust as almost to obliterate the characters inscribed upon them; but, after undergoing a chemical process, the inscriptions were brought out plain and distinct.

378There were six plates, four inches in length, one inch and three-quarters wide at the top, and two inches and three-quarters wide at the bottom, flaring out to points. There are four lines of characters or hieroglyphics on each. On one side of the plates are parallel lines running lengthways.

378By whom these plates were deposited there must ever remain a secret, unless some one skilled in deciphering hieroglyphics may be found to unravel the mystery. Some pretend to say that Smith, the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them. If he has, he will confer a great favor on the public by removing the mystery which hangs over them. A person present when the plates were found remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, which it undoubtedly will.

378In the place where these plates were deposited were also found human bones in the last stage of decomposition. There were but few bones found; and it is believed that it was but the burial-place of a person or family of distinction in ages long gone by, and that these plates contain the history of the times, or of a people that existed far, far beyond the memory of the present race. But we will not conjecture anything about this wonderful discovery, as it is one which the plates alone can reveal.

378The plates above alluded to were exhibited in this city last week, and are now, we understand, in Nauvoo, subject to the inspection of the Mormon Prophet. The public curiosity is greatly excited; and if Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent than any man now living. 1

379Slavery was this day abolished in every part of the British dominions in India, under the administration of Lord Ellenborough.

[All-American]

And the Ensign article that came out announcing (admitting?) that the plates were a hoax:

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...____&hideNav=1

[All-American]

And just for fun, I here note that the original journal from which the HC gets its source is in private possession. Journals from before and after the period have been published, but this one has not.

Just a little something for any conspiracy theorists out there to chew on.

[jay santos]

Sorry for the dumb questions, but...Who is HC? And what point are you making regarding Kinderhook plates?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Sorry for the dumb questions, but...Who is HC? And what point are you making regarding Kinderhook plates?

HC is history of the church.

And I am deliberately making NO point whatsoever, but rather supplying the source material in the hopes that it will catalyze a good discussion.

[SeattleUte]

I always kind of wondered what the Kinderhook pates were but never bothered to look it up. Thanks.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by All-American

HC is history of the church.

And I am deliberately making NO point whatsoever, but rather supplying the source material in the hopes that it will catalyze a good discussion.

As Archaea has already pointed out the Kinderhook plates are weak sauce not worthy of discussion.

He gave me an F.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

As Archaea has already pointed out the Kinderhook plates are weak sauce not worthy of discussion.

He gave me an F.

So you find it terribly significant that a journal makes mention of something that never appeared?

The old standbys are better criticisms, blacks and the priesthood, and polygamy, IMHO.

However a hoax that never amounted to anything really doesn't seem very impressive.

At the time of the printing, JS was not in control of Times and Seasons.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

As Archaea has already pointed out the Kinderhook plates are weak sauce not worthy of discussion.

He gave me an F.

I don't know why you say that. For those who would deign to engage in a weighing of evidence to determine whether JS told the truth about the Book of Mormon this sort of thing is certainly very damaging to his credibility. But I such an exercise is kind of silly in the first place.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

So you find it terribly significant that a journal makes mention of something that never appeared?

The old standbys are better criticisms, blacks and the priesthood, and polygamy, IMHO.

However a hoax that never amounted to anything really doesn't seem very impressive.

At the time of the printing, JS was not in control of Times and Seasons.

JS said he translated plates that turned out to be gibberish somebody made up. You accept the "testimony of witnesses" hook line and sinker and this doesn't matter to you?