Stephen Robinson bicycle allegory

[jay santos]

We've been counseled to start new threads when they start branching out. So I'll start a new thread with this.

UtahDan, you said you don't agree with the parable of the bicycle. I'm curious what you disagree with.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by jay santos

We've been counseled to start new threads when they start branching out. So I'll start a new thread with this.

UtahDan, you said you don't agree with the parable of the bicycle. I'm curious what you disagree with.

Becasue the little girl pays her part (her works) the Lord pays his part (the Atoning sacrifice) and they buy the bike (payment for the individuals sins) together.

I don't believe that we pay for any part of the bike. The Lord pays for 100% of it. We don't have the ability to atone for our own sins such that we are clean before God. All of those sins must be "paid for" by the atonement. Nor do I believe that there is anything we do to "earn" the atonement.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Becasue the little girl pays her part (her works) the Lord pays his part (the Atoning sacrifice) and they buy the bike (payment for the individuals sins) together.

I don't believe that we pay for any part of the bike. The Lord pays for 100% of it. We don't have the ability to atone for our own sins such that we are clean before God. All of those sins must be "paid for" by the atonement. Nor do I believe that there is anything we do to "earn" the atonement.

Maybe the author was suggesting that by exercising the works necessasry for repentance and receiving the full effect of the atonement that she confessed the sin and other life changing behaviors.

I don't see or read or understand just how the author suggests that by her actions she's able to atone for her sins. I don't think that's what he's saying at all.

He's simply saying she did her part to receive forgiveness. That's how I read it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Becasue the little girl pays her part (her works) the Lord pays his part (the Atoning sacrifice) and they buy the bike (payment for the individuals sins) together.

I don't believe that we pay for any part of the bike. The Lord pays for 100% of it. We don't have the ability to atone for our own sins such that we are clean before God. All of those sins must be "paid for" by the atonement. Nor do I believe that there is anything we do to "earn" the atonement.

OK, I see. I think Robinson would agree with you.

His audience was a group where some believe they earn their salvation and that Christ's atonement is the "little cherry on top". I think the point of that story was to illustrate how little we earn, and how ridiculous it is to think we've earned anything or pound our chest when our offering is so pathetic compared to Christ's.

Another example he uses is that we are asked to jump to the moon. Why should we puff ourselves up because we jump three feet compared to another's two feet?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Maybe the author was suggesting that by exercising the works necessasry for repentance and receiving the full effect of the atonement that she confessed the sin and other life changing behaviors.

I don't see or read or understand just how the author suggests that by her actions she's able to atone for her sins. I don't think that's what he's saying at all.

He's simply saying she did her part to receive forgiveness. That's how I read it.

My point is that we don't buy the bike even a little. How much of yourself can you ressurect for example. Your eye lashes? What part is left for the savior? Which of our own sins can we atone for? The answer is none. None of our works ENTITLE us to exaltation. If we are exalted, it is because Christ has purchased us 100%.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by jay santos

OK, I see. I think Robinson would agree with you.

His audience was a group where some believe they earn their salvation and that Christ's atonement is the "little cherry on top". I think the point of that story was to illustrate how little we earn, and how ridiculous it is to think we've earned anything or pound our chest when our offering is so pathetic compared to Christ's.

Another example he uses is that we are asked to jump to the moon. Why should we puff ourselves up because we jump three feet compared to another's two feet?

Fair enough. I just disagree with the concept that our works qualify us of exaltation in the slightest degree. It is a gift. The question of what steps we take to accept the gift is a different question.

Exaltation is the birthday present my brother sent me, waiting at the post office for me to pick up. By going there and signing for it I haven't done anything to earn it. It is still a gift. If I don't ever go sign for it, however, then I don't ever receive it. Exaltation is the gift. Repentence is signing for it.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Fair enough. I just disagree with the concept that our works qualify us of exaltation in the slightest degree. It is a gift. The question of what steps we take to accept the gift is a different question.

Exaltation is the birthday present my brother sent me, waiting at the post office for me to pick up. By going there and signing for it I haven't done anything to earn it. It is still a gift. If I don't ever go sign for it, however, then I don't ever receive it. Exaltation is the gift. Repentence is signing for it.

I can attest to the fact that UtahDan does very little to earn his birthday presents from me... ; )

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Fair enough. I just disagree with the concept that our works qualify us of exaltation in the slightest degree. It is a gift. The question of what steps we take to accept the gift is a different question.

Exaltation is the birthday present my brother sent me, waiting at the post office for me to pick up. By going there and signing for it I haven't done anything to earn it. It is still a gift. If I don't ever go sign for it, however, then I don't ever receive it. Exaltation is the gift. Repentence is signing for it.

Robinson actually uses that same comparison. Or you receive a check and cash it. By cashing it did you really do any work to earn it?

The word "qualify" is starting to become the most oft-used word in general conference. So I think though I'm right there with you in my doctrinal beliefs, I have to disagree technically with your statement.

"I just disagree with the concept that our works qualify us of exaltation in the slightest degree. "

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Becasue the little girl pays her part (her works) the Lord pays his part (the Atoning sacrifice) and they buy the bike (payment for the individuals sins) together.

I don't believe that we pay for any part of the bike. The Lord pays for 100% of it. We don't have the ability to atone for our own sins such that we are clean before God. All of those sins must be "paid for" by the atonement. Nor do I believe that there is anything we do to "earn" the atonement.

It is through our works that we are justified. So if God hypothetically asks Christ why he recommends us for exaltation, Christ would point out the things we've done in our lives in an attempt to become more like Him. While whatever attempt, in and of itself, is woefully insufficient, it provides a basis on which Christ can justify extending His saving grace unto us before the Father.

Because of “the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice,” Jesus Christ can satisfy or “answer the ends of the law” on our behalf. Pardon comes by the grace of Him who has satisfied the demands of justice by His own suffering, “the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” (1 Pet. 3:18). He removes our condemnation without removing the law. We are pardoned and placed in a condition of righteousness with Him. We become, like Him, without sin. We are sustained and protected by the law, by justice. We are, in a word, justified.

Thus, we may appropriately speak of one who is justified as pardoned, without sin, or guiltless. For example, “Whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world” (3 Ne. 27:16; emphasis added).

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...004d82620a____

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

It is through our works that we are justified.

I could not disagree more with that statement. Look all through your New Testament. Any time the word "just" or "made just" is used, it is Christ that is the just one. Not us. We're the guilty ones. We're only justified or made just through his innocence and righteousness.