I told you so.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

My copy of Josephus and of Tacitus say the Jews have a pretty strong historical claim of their own to the area. Did you know Islam's forebears helped the Romans conquer Israel and purge it of Jews, repeatedly? You probably think 1,800 years is a long time. Guess what. It's not.

Oh my. Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

My copy of Josephus and of Tacitus say the Jews have a pretty strong historical claim of their own to the area. Did you know Islam's forebears helped the Romans conquer Israel and purge it of Jews, repeatedly? You probably think 1,800 years is a long time. Guess what. It's not.

And the Israelites purged it of Amorites, Amalekites, Canaanites or whatever before that.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Oh my. Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

Uh, that can of worms is why the Jews went there in the first place. It's why Arch's idea that they be resettle in South America never had legs.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

btw, what hardship have you suffered that would make you know so much? That you felt bad for your brother when he lost his 50 million dollar paycheck? Sheesh. If anyone puts vaseline in his gloves and pretends to do anything important, or stand for anything important, its you.

Do you have to eperience suffering to have empathy for the suffering? If so you're worse than self-absorbed. You're a narcissist.

You ought to be going on about the Palestinians' wicked leaders, extending probably back to Saladin. The Palestinians should be so lucky to be stewards of the United States and Israel.

You remind me of my old U of U professors, apologists for Marxism, or JazzyUte with his Lenin avatar. Do you believe in evil, or just your own smarty pants turns of phrase?

Here is what the gift is: the power to discern good and evil, and to empathize. Waters, I'm so sorry, you don't have it. Not in this life. Some of us have souls that are older and more seasoned than others.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Uh, that can of worms is why the Jews went there in the first place. It's why Arch's idea that they be resettle in South America never had legs.

Fair enough. So I take it that you agree with Pat Robertson that Israel should not stop at the West Bank and that they should take possession of Syria, Jordan, and much of Iraq due to "historical claims" on the land?

And what is the statute of limitations? If not 1800 years, then what?

Should the Italians have claim on the greater Roman empire?

Should we cede North America back to the native Americans?

Help me get a sense for how far we should go to apply this principle.

[creekster]

Besides, why do the Palestinians not reserve any ire for their Arab brothers who sold them down the river and gave them nothing?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Fair enough. So I take it that you agree with Pat Robertson that Israel should not stop at the West Bank and that they should take possession of Syria, Jordan, and much of Iraq due to "historical claims" on the land?

And what is the statute of limitations? If not 1800 years, then what?

Should the Italians have claim on the greater Roman empire?

Should we cede North America back to the native Americans?

Help me get a sense for how far we should go to apply this principle.

No, to all of this (PR and I agree on nothing). This point, that Jews are not Middle Eastern carpetbaggers with no historical claims next to the Palestinians' historical claims, is just a codicile to my earlier brief (what is your point here, anyway? that Israel has no right to exist?):

1) I think that Israel and Western Europe and some other countries including now Japan are like family. There are deep ties particularly with the UK and Israel I wouldn't even want to begin to summarize here. When Argentina invaded the Faulklands and the UK went and kicked the bejeezus out of Argentina, I don't think Reagan stopped to think about the equities of Argentina's position before publically strongly endorsing Thatcher's retaliation and confirming American alliance with the UK. Argentina's position was not without equitable considerations and I don't know how Reagan reconciled his position with the Monroe Doctrine. Still, history says he was right and most all Americans supported him.

2) Our family is large and inclusive and ever growing but one of the conditions to addmission is a relatively free democratic government. One of the reasons it was easy to support the UK vs. Argentina is Argentina was at the time a brutal military dictatorship.

3) Israel is an oasis of democracy in the Middle East and for that reason alone we should support Israel. To deny Israel is a democracy shows profound misunderstanding of history. Women were disenfranchised for much of American history and no thoughtful person would deny America was a democracy. Our models, Greece and Rome, were simililarly underdeveloped democracies. To be sure, American democracy is further evolved than Israel's, but it's not right to deny that it's a liberal democracy. Israel has probably done a remarkable job of balancing its religious heritage with its democratic ideals.

4) Tex is right that to brand Israel a criminal because it forcibly took territory it now occupies similarly ignores history. I agree with him that America itself was to a large extent a product of a series of wars, as were our forebear cultures. I don't know what to say about the groups of people who historically were on the losing end of these conflicts except to say that we need to use our wealth and power and enlightenment to give them equal footing as citizens and nations with the dominant powers. The Israelis and Americans and Europeans are about the only dominant nations in history I've seen engaging in this magnanimous process.

5) I don't think the PLO and Hezbollah have engaged in good faith negotiations. I don't think they simply want a homeland for the poeople they purport to represent. I think they're barbarous war mongers. War lords and thugs. They're like Huns and Visigoths. They are from another epoch. If they were of similar value composition and mind as the U.S., Western Europe, Isreal and Japan, this issue would ahve been resolbed long ago.

6) Words like genocide and ethnic cleansing are usually only applied to the American conflicts with aboriginies by radicals. I think it's irresponsible to brand America's settlement of the West that way because it implicitly equates these actions with Hitler's liquidation of Polish Jews, gypsies, etc., and systematic attempt to eradicate entire peoples from the face of the earth in the interest of propagating an all-white police state, Stalin's slaughter of 30 million more or less intellectuals, cossacks, whatever class of people might oppose his police state; China, etc. American hisotory is soaked in blood and the tale of the tragic events to which Lebowski alludes shoud be fully developed. But to call them "genoside" and "ethnic cleansing" does not advance the cause of truth. Call what America did soemthing else because we've never been Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. To suggest such a thing is where the soft-headedness comes in. And we do to some extent enjoy the good life in our crystal towers because of the settling of the American west, for better or worse. Maybe these types of paradoxes exist as part of a divine plan, to make us reflective, and it's not all just ducky horsey black and white, CTR, etc.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

No, to all of this (PR and I agree on nothing). This point, that Jews are not Middle Eastern carpetbaggers with no historical claims next to the Palestinians' historical claims, is just a codicile to my earlier brief (what is your point here, anyway? that Israel has no right to exist?):

My point is simply that we should call a spade a spade. Israel became a Jewish state at a time when the Jews were a small minority in the region as a result of having the proper political influence at the right moment in history. And largely because Americans (including Truman) became caught up with the idea of God's chosen people returning to the holy land and fulfilling prophesy. The Palestinians were simply brushed aside because they did not have the proper birthright and did not worship the right god. They were (and continue to be) the modern-day Canaanites.

In spite of your clever reference to Roman history as opposed to biblical history, you can't deny the role that religion plays in this conflict. And when we start trotting out 1800-year old claims to justify displacing a people by force, I wonder if we are not much different from those we consider to be less civilized than us.

Finally, one of the main points in your brief is absolutely correct. We Americans look out for our friends. Right or wrong, we support our friends.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by creekster

Besides, why do the Palestinians not reserve any ire for their Arab brothers who sold them down the river and gave them nothing?

Excellent question. Muslim brotherhood only goes so far.

[MikeWaters]

That's exactly my point. Most Americans can't recognize any evil, any wrong-doing in Israel.

The Palestinians are dogs. The Jews are God's chosen people.

Blah, blah, blah.