The Church is smart

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

I assumed we were operating from a common definition of what is moral. If you want to say moral means anything any religion or person ever defined it as, then sure.

But that doesn't strike me as much of an argument.

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Solon

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

Another deliberate dishonest statement.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

I know. And my point was, moral rightness and bigotry are mutually exclusive.

Your only response to that is to play with the definition of "moral."

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

I know. And my point was, moral rightness and bigotry are mutually exclusive.

Your only response to that is to play with the definition of "moral."

I don't think we're all that far apart here.

I think there are plenty of examples in Hebrew / Christian history where God or God's prophets promoted bigotry, whether it was against people of the neighboring tribes, evildoers, heretics, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, African-Americans etc. But is an "amoral" action done with the stamp of approval of God / God's representative in fact moral? It's obviously arguable either way, but the bigoted position remains.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

I don't think we're all that far apart here.

I think there are plenty of examples in Hebrew / Christian history where God or God's prophets promoted bigotry, whether it was against people of the neighboring tribes, evildoers, heretics, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, African-Americans etc. But is an "amoral" action done with the stamp of approval of God / God's representative in fact moral? It's obviously arguable either way, but the bigoted position remains.

At least, that's how I see it.

But that strikes me as self-contradictory. In my opinion, a bigoted act cannot be a morally right act. It's inseparable. If God magically makes an act moral, why can't he magically make it not bigoted too? If we're going to get anywhere in this discussion, we have to settle on a common definition for the sake of argument.

Let's take a clear example: murder. The term connotes immorality (dictionary: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person"). Committed under certain circumstances however (say, in self-defense), it becomes moral. It's no longer murder. It's the same, in my mind, with bigotry.

Does that mean every act committed in the name of morality actually is moral? No. Which is why we have to agree on some meaning for the term, or discussion is really useless. I'm not interested in debating how the term has been abused (or changed) over the years, but what it means for me, now.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

But that strikes me as self-contradictory. In my opinion, a bigoted act cannot be a morally right act. It's inseparable. If God magically makes an act moral, why can't he magically make it not bigoted too? If we're going to get anywhere in this discussion, we have to settle on a common definition for the sake of argument.

Let's take a clear example: murder. The term connotes immorality (dictionary: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person"). Committed under certain circumstances however (say, in self-defense), it becomes moral. It's no longer murder. It's the same, in my mind, with bigotry.

Does that mean every act committed in the name of morality actually is moral? No. Which is why we have to agree on some meaning for the term, or discussion is really useless. I'm not interested in debating how the term has been abused (or changed) over the years, but what it means for me, now.

A good analysis. I think we're just discussing semantics and the issue is going to boil down to belief in divine approval or not. Not the best route for discussion but thanks for making this issue clear for me.