Agree or disagree?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I guess the lesson learned from this debate is, the time is past when the morals which the Church considers important are held by the more part of the people and the people will continue to wickedness.

The Church should just advise its people of correct conduct and stand by the wayside advocating nothing.

The missionary work is already on the decline. Our temple attendance is down. And we don't engage in emergency preparedness. President Hinckley is correct, he is the prophet that nobody listens to.

Politically speaking, there are not many issues that the more part of the people care about. That is why the parties seek polarizing issues to galvanize a base.

The nation is so diverse that no substantial majority cares about something. So it becomes necessary to scare constituents into buying into a need for particular leglislation. The Right does it with Anti Gay legislation. The Left does it with Social Security. W's decision to add prescriptions will come back to haunt us financially.

We experience 9-11, so W and all others scare us into a need for the Patriot Act.

Somebody claims there is a trend of global warming, so there is a rush for legislation addressing that issue.

Unfortunately our nation is governed through scare tactics, rather than sound debate.

Mike raised the standard issue of 1%, when he full well knows not to trust political leaders for sound and legitimate political argument and policy. These policies don't make for good speeches in political stumping. A sound policy would usually be boring to listen to.

The Church is probably on the downside right now, as our nation is becoming more agnostic, more sinful and less cognizant of the Spirit. We will become a smaller minority rather than larger. Religion will decline here as elsewhere. Has anybody spent time in Europe? Religion is not viewed seriously in most countries there. It's usually viewed as something old women do, and nobody else.

I wager the Church will engage in the political arena even less, now that is has received a solid loss. It will become as Mormon, refusing to participate, until we are destroyed.

Man, your religion posts or more depressing than your BYU football posts.

Life is good, Arch. Drug use is down from where it was in the 80's. So is cigarette smoking. Democracy and freedom is winning in the world.

Christians have as loud of voice in politics as I ever remember. I disagree religion is on the decline.

I live in Utah but as I travel and interact with others I see that people are basically good, God-fearing people everywhere I go.

The majority of the nation is against an ammendment against gay marriage. The majority of the nation is not having homosexual sex or condoning it or even voting for gay marriage to be legal.

When I was young my dad was big on this concept about the majority of the nation going evil and how awful the world is. It's not true. The word is a wonderful place, still.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Man, your religion posts or more depressing than your BYU football posts.

Life is good, Arch. Drug use is down from where it was in the 80's. So is cigarette smoking. Democracy and freedom is winning in the world.

Christians have as loud of voice in politics as I ever remember. I disagree religion is on the decline.

I live in Utah but as I travel and interact with others I see that people are basically good, God-fearing people everywhere I go.

The majority of the nation is against an ammendment against gay marriage. The majority of the nation is not having homosexual sex or condoning it or even voting for gay marriage to be legal.

When I was young my dad was big on this concept about the majority of the nation going evil and how awful the world is. It's not true. The word is a wonderful place, still.

I think a strong argument could be made that the country is more religious today than it ever has been before (including at its foundation).

Sometimes I wonder how you make it through a day, Archaea.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by All-American

No trap intended, it's just an argument I came across and was curious as to what you all thought.

Allowing homosexuals the ability to legalize a union is not going to affect heterosexuals who get married.

The quote seemed to imply that if we allow gays to get married, it will lead to the frustration of the Lord's plan to exalt, since when did homosexuals hold the key to the fruition of the Lord's plan? Why if 2% of the country is required the chance to legalize their relationship would the 98% be adversely affected? Why would homosexuals being married frustrate LDS morals and standards? How is homosexual marriage going to affect baptism rates?

I see it as such a non-issue that it makes me sad the church has made it an issue.

I live in a dying city, the leadership is inept, the citizenship doesn't care, and in many situations in the city the church is the saving grace for a large group of people. The stake center is full of people who come dressed in jeans and tee shirts requesting church assistance, all the while drug dealers are making deals in front of the chapel. Would a church issued letter, endorsed by the presidency requesting we follow the tenents of Christ to love our neighbors do more good than Elder Nelson flying to Washington DC to fight this issue? I think it would.....

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Man, your religion posts or more depressing than your BYU football posts.

Life is good, Arch. Drug use is down from where it was in the 80's. So is cigarette smoking. Democracy and freedom is winning in the world.

Christians have as loud of voice in politics as I ever remember. I disagree religion is on the decline.

I live in Utah but as I travel and interact with others I see that people are basically good, God-fearing people everywhere I go.

The majority of the nation is against an ammendment against gay marriage. The majority of the nation is not having homosexual sex or condoning it or even voting for gay marriage to be legal.

When I was young my dad was big on this concept about the majority of the nation going evil and how awful the world is. It's not true. The word is a wonderful place, still.

Look and listen to the US Congress and tell me you can feel good about anything going on there without wanting to say, "Those mother f.... sons of b..."

That is how I feel everytime I listen to any debate within the Congress.

No, we are not a good people and we are deluding ourselves if we believe we are good. What good does it do to pat oneself on the back. Isn't it better motivation to use the football coach mentality that you suck and you'd better work your arses off?

When I was a kid, eons ago, drug use was experiemental, free sex was the rage, as opposed to the fifties, when kids were into heavy petting instead all out sex. However, for the most part, you had the group who were in the wild group, and those who were not. Gay sex wasn't even discussed except in disgust.

Today, outside of LDS, you'd be hard pressed to find what was considered wild, not only accepted but the norm. Drugs are a constant. Cheating and dishonesty are the norm. Gay sex is now the "norm" with some of the kids' cool groups.

Imagine how difficult it is now for missionaries, where convert baptisms are way down. There is no longer a common ground for repentance.

Today nothing is wrong. Except "sins against the environment." Oh, there's something to get my blood excited about. Basically, if you go to work, mind your own business and try to exercise some sort of restraint, you're the odd duck. People would rather select the lazy option, the option for personal gratification.

I do not know what the answer is.

It is NOT through government.

It is through catastrophic cleansing of society, which I hope to avoid. Our society has never known privation, therefore it is full of gluttony and excess.

Yes good people exist, in the minority and who for their own security, financially and spiritually, remain quiet. Speaking out no longer works. Through the cacophy of communal static, nobody can hear, or nobody's listening.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

Look, if you don't want to discuss the issue, just don't discuss it. This sort of self-righteous comment doesn't really add to the discussion. Do you really want to go the way of Lingo and grapevine, where people just ignore your input?

Of course when one sides with the prophet and with Jesus Christ then he's considered self righteous.

But you're right, I should probably and will refrain from making comments about this topic in the future as I've made it clear where I stand. Like I've said before it's a shame that too many are too chicken to stand with direction that has come directly from the Savior.

If you choose to ignore me, go ahead.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Of course when one sides with the prophet and with Jesus Christ then he's considered self righteous.

But you're right, I should probably and will refrain from making comments about this topic in the future as I've made it clear where I stand. Like I've said before it's a shame that too many are too chicken to stand with direction that has come directly from the Savior.

If you choose to ignore me, go ahead.

Rocky, Jesus said two things....

a. Love God above all things

b. Love your neighbor like you love yourself

Now if we personally love God, we personally will strive to do what we 'should' do, but if we love our neighbors, we will extend them friendship, brotherhood, courtesies, devotion, love, kinship, etc, even if we aren't comfortable with the decisions they make.

That's the part that people don't understand about that passage, the first part is personal, and deals with us individually, the second part is universal, and deals with mankind.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Look and listen to the US Congress and tell me you can feel good about anything going on there without wanting to say, "Those mother f.... sons of b..."

That is how I feel everytime I listen to any debate within the Congress.

No, we are not a good people and we are deluding ourselves if we believe we are good. What good does it do to pat oneself on the back. Isn't it better motivation to use the football coach mentality that you suck and you'd better work your arses off?

When I was a kid, eons ago, drug use was experiemental, free sex was the rage, as opposed to the fifties, when kids were into heavy petting instead all out sex. However, for the most part, you had the group who were in the wild group, and those who were not. Gay sex wasn't even discussed except in disgust.

Today, outside of LDS, you'd be hard pressed to find what was considered wild, not only accepted but the norm. Drugs are a constant. Cheating and dishonesty are the norm. Gay sex is now the "norm" with some of the kids' cool groups.

Imagine how difficult it is now for missionaries, where convert baptisms are way down. There is no longer a common ground for repentance.

Today nothing is wrong. Except "sins against the environment." Oh, there's something to get my blood excited about. Basically, if you go to work, mind your own business and try to exercise some sort of restraint, you're the odd duck. People would rather select the lazy option, the option for personal gratification.

I do not know what the answer is.

It is NOT through government.

It is through catastrophic cleansing of society, which I hope to avoid. Our society has never known privation, therefore it is full of gluttony and excess.

Yes good people exist, in the minority and who for their own security, financially and spiritually, remain quiet. Speaking out no longer works. Through the cacophy of communal static, nobody can hear, or nobody's listening.

So tell me when it comes to the issue of gay marriage,,,,,who's right? You or Jesus Christ?

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

So tell me when it comes to the issue of gay marriage,,,,,who's right? You or Jesus Christ?

Render to Caesar, what is Caesars....

I honestly think Jesus would say this, and than would instruct us to love the person.

Is there really any difference between a homosexual and the woman Jesus saved from stoning?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Allowing homosexuals the ability to legalize a union is not going to affect heterosexuals who get married.

The quote seemed to imply that if we allow gays to get married, it will lead to the frustration of the Lord's plan to exalt, since when did homosexuals hold the key to the fruition of the Lord's plan? Why if 2% of the country is required the chance to legalize their relationship would the 98% be adversely affected? Why would homosexuals being married frustrate LDS morals and standards? How is homosexual marriage going to affect baptism rates?

I see it as such a non-issue that it makes me sad the church has made it an issue.

I live in a dying city, the leadership is inept, the citizenship doesn't care, and in many situations in the city the church is the saving grace for a large group of people. The stake center is full of people who come dressed in jeans and tee shirts requesting church assistance, all the while drug dealers are making deals in front of the chapel. Would a church issued letter, endorsed by the presidency requesting we follow the tenents of Christ to love our neighbors do more good than Elder Nelson flying to Washington DC to fight this issue? I think it would.....

Nobody's listening.

Have ignored all Conference Addresses? The addresses on popular issues are few and far between. You take issue with one flight, ignoring the hundred other flights.

Why should the Church, whose primary duty is to instruct, exhaust its resources for temporality?

I imagine I could turn to the most recent conference address and find several references to "love thy neighbor", so your "concern" is misplaced and misrepresents the Church's position.

I doubt the Church is the type of social institution that can help people so far gone that they no longer exercise any level of self control. Others must intervene before those are ready to even listen to the message.

You seem to view the Church as some sort of social help institution giving hand outs. I see the Church as an institution which possesses information and ordinances, and which when resources allow, will provide short terms assistance at the temporal level.

Sad that the Church advocates teaching its position through symbolism? Most of its teachings are symbolic.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Render to Caesar, what is Caesars....

I honestly think Jesus would say this, and than would instruct us to love the person.

Is there really any difference between a homosexual and the woman Jesus saved from stoning?

Yes. Nobody has actually stoned a homosexual yet...but Rocky is polishing his rocks... : )