do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Levin

I disagree with the emphasis on church membership here. Baptism is not about church membership, IMO, but about sin, forgiveness, and Christ.

The Church comes in by defining what it means to follow Christ, which baptism is a promise to do. Too often, though, the focus is then on the WofW and other such regulations. To not drink is to follow Christ.

I'd root "following Christ" more in the Sermon on the Mount, and in that situation, your "Church as an authority figure" disolves somewhat. What the Church then becomes is an association of brothers and sisters, a human laboratory, in which to apply the Sermon.

Once again, you misunderstand. I haven't set aside sin, forgiveness, or Christ. I've suggested that the ritual itself does not affect forgiveness without maturing in Christ (which goes along with moral development, and could occur at baptism, but would much more importantly need to occur througout one's life. This is one of my major points). Baptism as a continual process is where I've put the value, and the ritual is only the starting point. That's why I'm not all out of sorts about baptism for eight year olds even though they don't have a developed moral sense.

You don't understand what I am talking about in my discussion of membership and the Church as an authority figure (and apparently because you don't understand Kohlberg). The Church as an authority that can assist with moral development is not in an either/or with what is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. We agree that the Church is a place where the Sermon on the Mount can be applied. What you don't understand is that I have posited the value of the Church as an authority figure specifically at the ritual of baptism. The ritual of baptism is a liminal activity that confers membership (and a sense of expectations and responsibility), and the Church authorizes the liminality--there is distinct value in these specific activities that can help further moral development.

I know some people have gone at you a bit and you might be feeling reactionary, but please take the time to understand what I've written. I'm not asking that you agree, only that you make a sincere effort to represent my position accurately.

[Levin]

I don't know what you mean that "baptism is a continual process." It's an ordinance with a fixed point in time that has spiritual effect at that point in time. It starts you on a path, yes, but what we've been discussing is whether 8 year olds are able to apprehend the moral implications of being baptized at that point in time. As to the essentials of baptism, I say yes. That it takes a liftime of endurance, and a weekly renewal of promises, to follow Christ is beside the point.

Again, I disagree with your emphasis on the Church as defining the liminal event. For me, baptism is not about moving from non-membership to membership, but about moving from a non-follower of Christ to a follower of Christ. So the heart of what we've been discussing is whether we think 8 year olds have the moral maturation to choose to follow Christ -- to want to be a follower of Christ. Baptism is the ritual by which you signify your willingness. That the Church provides the authority for that ritual, and acts as an authority for the child thereafter, I agree with that. But Church membership doesn't make baptism a crossover event; being a follower of Christ does.

The preceding paragraph is why I think we need to respect the baptisms of other Christian denominations. The "authority" may not be there, but the spiritual essentials are. It bugs me that we focus on the lack of authority rather than on the decision to follow Christ, albeit as members of a different denomination.

As to the spiritual effects for the individual, the cleansing that they feel and the devotion to which they set their heart, I see little difference between baptism into the LDS Church versus baptism into the Catholic church so long as the person does it for Christ's sake, and not for the Church's.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Levin

I don't know what you mean that "baptism is a continual process." It's an ordinance with a fixed point in time that has spiritual effect at that point in time. It starts you on a path, yes, but what we've been discussing is whether 8 year olds are able to apprehend the moral implications of being baptized at that point in time. As to the essentials of baptism, I say yes. That it takes a liftime of endurance, and a weekly renewal of promises, to follow Christ is beside the point.

Again, I disagree with your emphasis on the Church as defining the liminal event. For me, baptism is not about moving from non-membership to membership, but about moving from a non-follower of Christ to a follower of Christ. So the heart of what we've been discussing is whether we think 8 year olds have the moral maturation to choose to follow Christ -- to want to be a follower of Christ. Baptism is the ritual by which you signify your willingness. That the Church provides the authority for that ritual, and acts as an authority for the child thereafter, I agree with that. But Church membership doesn't make baptism a crossover event; being a follower of Christ does.

The preceding paragraph is why I think we need to respect the baptisms of other Christian denominations. The "authority" may not be there, but the spiritual essentials are. It bugs me that we focus on the lack of authority rather than on the decision to follow Christ, albeit as members of a different denomination.

As to the spiritual effects for the individual, the cleansing that they feel and the devotion to which they set their heart, I see little difference between baptism into the LDS Church versus baptism into the Catholic church so long as the person does it for Christ's sake, and not for the Church's.

I sound like a broken record--but you don't understand. I'll try and lay this out in bullet points:

• I am suggesting that baptism is more accurately and usefully looked at as a process and not simply as a ritual event (or object). I hope you'll consider this idea, instead of just dismissing it because it is different from what you have put forward.
• I am suggesting that while the ritual event of baptism (that is, the ritual event that belongs to the larger process of baptism I am conceptualizing) is necessary and may have or coincide with a spiritual effect, the more important spiritual effect is for the person to continue to mature in Christ. I see this as part and parcel of eternal progression.
• I am suggesting that there is a better question than the one being discussed. People growing in their understandings of the moral implications of baptism are more important. Your whole paradigm for thinking of baptism as a discrete event is beside "the point," as it were, as it is useless.
• I have asserted that the ritual of baptism can have moral value for an eight-year-old that an infant baptism cannot, but that this is only a step in the direction of being able to comprehend baptism in a way that will help one mature in Christ.
• I have asserted that some of the value of remembered baptism comes with reflection, and long after the ritual itself.
• I have asserted, as per Kohlberg, that eight-year-olds will typically understand baptism within a known-authority-figure and immediate- consequences framework. You haven't disputed this.
• I have asserted that the eight year old's understanding of an event like baptism can increase over time, and that therefore its value can increase.
• You evidence misunderstanding when you declare, "I disagree with your emphasis on the Church as defining the liminal event." Baptism as a ritual is a liminal event that is authorized by the Church. This is a statement of fact, that one can observe or ignore, but it is not a matter of agreement/disagreement.
• I mention the value of membership and beholdeness to the Church's authority because seeing one's identity as part of an institution--such as a Church--has implications for moral development, and particularly for children as beginning to see consequenses and responsibilities beyond their families, friends, and classrooms.
• I haven't asserted that "Church membership makes baptism a crossover event" in the sense you assume. When I'm talking about authority in this discussion, I don't specifically mean priesthood authority. I mean moral authority. There is the potential for developmental value in children agreeing to abide by insitutional moral authority--this is the value of membership agreed upon at the ritual of baptism that I am asserting. I am not advancing the idea that Christian baptism more generally is useless because such persons do not become Mormons. I have argued to the contrary, actually. My arguments have everything to do with Kohlberg's arguments about moral development.

I hope this clears things up. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just arguing for the value of looking at the entire issue differently. If you don't find something worthy in my perspective, or are simply puzzled, I'm OK with you moving on to another discussion at this point.

[Levin]

I agree with many of your bullet points (that people spiritually mature as they get older; res ipsa loquitor).

I disagree, however, with your main push to view baptism differently, namely, that baptism is more usefully and accurately described as a process. Baptism serves an important role as the "door" to the path, the gateway by which we must pass through to start on the journey. It's the act we perform in order to symbolize the change of heart. I wouldn't strip the ordinance of this powerful meaning.

There are plenty of other ideas to describe the process of spiritual growth, of drawing closer to Christ, of enduring to the end. We need an ordinance that symbolizes the start, and baptism is it. Preserving this role for baptism does nothing to denigrate the idea that we mature in Christ.

[SeattleUte]

I'm astonished at the momentum of this humble subject. Astonished. 137 posts and over 1,100 hits. And it's one of the few LDS practices that's actually in the canon and non-controversial. It could even be legitimately be called doctrine and is not likely to change. What is there to talk about?

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Perhaps the word "decide" is a bit misplaced, if you're taking it to mean that an adult used the scientific method to weigh the options, and make a cerebral decision about the pros and cons of baptism.

But let's not be ridiculous. A child is not an adult, even at age 8, 10, or even 16. We baptize at 8 because that's the time the Lord says a child becomes accountable, meaning a greater need to understand the atonement, and a greater need for the influence of the Spirit (via the Gift).

Calling it a "decision" is a way of conveying to the child--and reminding the rest of us--of the importance of the ordinance, and our own personal responsibility to keeping our covenants. Dickering over the term seems a little silly to me.

I actually see this the same way you do.

Somebody bookmark this!

[fusnik11]

Mosiah 18: 7-11

And it came to pass after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma. Yea, all were gathered together that believed on his word, to hear him. And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord.

And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts. And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

Moroni 8: 10-15

Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

-----

Would some people consider an 8 year old a little child? Yes. By maturity standards is an 8 year truly accountable for their actions? Probably not.

Baptism at 8 is prudent for the church. It indoctrinates people from an early age that certain processes need to take place to progress through the church and through the eternities. It boosts the church membership substantially, it requires that parents maintain contact with the church and create social norms and patterns during the initiation period of their marriages.

My baptism at 8 was a special father son moment more so than a spiritual rebirth. I wasn't agreeing to bear anybody's burdens, I wasn't willing to mourn with those who mourn, but I was willing to share a special Saturday with my mom and dad. It's a traditional ritual for active mormons more than a spiritual birth.