Mormon tribalism has never been weaker

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It is beyond obvious that intermountain Mormons control the agenda of the church.

You cannot put forth a hypothesis that is different.

Intermountain Mormons forward the agenda but it is decidly NOT American. You cannot pur forth a hypothesis that is different. The evidence is overwhelming.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I don't live in the states. Consider for a moment that I am the ONLY American in my congregation. Previously, before moving to the suburbs I was also one of the FEW caucasians. My church culture is decidedly different than that of Utah's. Now place my experience in context to membership around the world along with the move by Salt Lake to send apostles abroad permantly! Salt Lake will always call the shots, but the direction the church is NOT determined by American needs but by world needs.

You and Mike and all others on this site save maybe myboynoah have a woefully self-centered view of the church. It is as much an expression of your Americanism as it is your Mormonism.

Consider for a moment if the US still calls the shots?

Yes, the intermountain Mormon hierarchy calls all the shots. It's not even the USA church. It's the intermountain church.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have had a very clear record as being against the mainstreaming of the church.

For exactly these reasons. The tribe will die.

You lament the death of the tribe while mocking those who would vote for Romney out of tribal instincts.

You look forward gleefully to the prospect of mormons facing the dilemna of an anti-mormon republican nominee, yet you deride those that would be willing to vote for an anti-mormon candidate.

You criticize a pushback against the old prophets, while you show no hesitation to pushback yourself when convenient.

You are outraged at the racist history of the old prophets, but are highly critical of Mitt for expressing negative thoughts about polygamy.

You agonize over mainstreaming while agonizing over drops in convert baptisms. Then you link the two. (you also grossly overstate the mainstreaming, IMO).

And the solution to "saving the tribal identity" is more people attempting to steady the ark?

My head is spinning.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Intermountain Mormons forward the agenda but it is decidly NOT American. You cannot pur forth a hypothesis that is different. The evidence is overwhelming.

The agenda to de-emphasize Mormon tribalism is coming from outside of America? Is that what you are saying?

I don't care so much where the agenda is coming from, than I am that the agenda exists.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The trend is towards de-emphasizing everything that makes Mormons unique.

"That's in the past." "We stick to the basics of the gospel." "We obey living prophets, not the ones from the past." "Please don't use the word 'Mormon', we are 'Latter-day Saints." "We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

That's called an anecdote ... What was our original name? Why do we emphasize Jesus Christ -for American interests?

... no, for world interests

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The agenda to de-emphasize Mormon tribalism is coming from outside of America? Is that what you are saying?

I don't care so much where the agenda is coming from, than I am that the agenda exists.

No Mike, that's not what I am saying ... I am saying that as an American Mormon you are dillusional.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You mean things like temples, prophets and so forth?

Exactly.

The bigger emphasis on the temple over the past 60 years, and the development of the infallible "stick to the brethren" leadership are components of this trend. It's quite a departure from the LDS church's 19th century roots.

Go read Mauss' book and you'll sound smarter when you throw out these little provocations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wTB...mbnail#PPP1,M1

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You lament the death of the tribe while mocking those who would vote for Romney out of tribal instincts.

You look forward gleefully to the prospect of mormons facing the dilemna of an anti-mormon republican nominee, yet you deride those that would be willing to vote for an anti-mormon candidate.

You criticize a pushback against the old prophets, while you show no hesitation to pushback yourself when convenient.

You are outraged at the racist history of the old prophets, but are highly critical of Mitt for expressing negative thoughts about polygamy.

You agonize over mainstreaming while agonizing over drops in convert baptisms. Then you link the two. (you also grossly overstate the mainstreaming, IMO).

And the solution to "saving the tribal identity" is more people attempting to steady the ark?

My head is spinning.

It's because Waters doesn't have a sincere bone left in his body.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yes, the intermountain Mormon hierarchy calls all the shots. It's not even the USA church. It's the intermountain church.

Now you are spouting hyperbole ... because your entire premise is shot by the presence of ONE Mormon who does not live in the US

lolololololololololol!

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You lament the death of the tribe while mocking those who would vote for Romney out of tribal instincts.

what small support I have for Romney, exists almost entirely out of the fact that he is being attacked for being Mormon. I am a tribalist.

You look forward gleefully to the prospect of mormons facing the dilemna of an anti-mormon republican nominee, yet you deride those that would be willing to vote for an anti-mormon candidate.

This scenario will lead to useful introspection for the American Mormon community.

You criticize a pushback against the old prophets, while you show no hesitation to pushback yourself when convenient.

I don't push back against the original Mormonism of the prophet, seer, and revelator Joseph Smith. If there is such thing as gnostic Mormonism, I would be an adherent. I am the anti-Jay Santos.

You are outraged at the racist history of the old prophets, but are highly critical of Mitt for expressing negative thoughts about polygamy.

Better to contrast the outrage of the average Mormon when someone like me says racism existed and was the source, compared to the absolute lack of any anger at all when Romney criticizes a fundamental aspect of Mormonism contained in the D&C.

You agonize over mainstreaming while agonizing over drops in convert baptisms. Then you link the two. (you also grossly overstate the mainstreaming, IMO).

Mainstreaming will not help gain converts. That is what many don't understand.

And the solution to "saving the tribal identity" is more people attempting to steady the ark?

When the tribe reaches the point that members of the tribe can't comment on the specter of instinction, the tribe will be dead, in all practical respects.

My head is spinning.

So is mine, as I see forces conspiring to hold the church back.