Church Discipline

[ERCougar]

This is a concept that I really struggle to understand. For someone who actively fights the church or falsely represents the church (or attacks the church or whatever...), I understand the purpose of excommunication. For those who have sinned out of weakness and not belligerence, I don't get it.

A few examples to make my point...
My sister has had a bad few years and wants to turn her life around. She doesn't believe everything about the church and has had some bad experiences with a few leaders (legitimately bad...not just taking offense at stupid things), but she sees the good in the church and wants to start living the gospel. But she's afraid she'll be excommunicated. I tell her that it probably wouldn't happen (although I don't really know), but the fear, combined with other bad experiences, keeps her back and she's sort of living the Gospel "independently".

Why do we have something in place that discourages people from coming back into the fold? Having had my own experiences in the repentance process, I never really understood the Bishop's role either. It almost seemed like he was trying to insert himself into something that was between me and God. That's nothing against him--I thought his intentions were good, I could sense his sincere concern for me, he was very nonjudgmental, and I'm sure he did a better job than I would have done. I just remember during my meetings with him just feeling really weird about the whole thing.

As a teenager, whenever I'd think about morality, it always boiled down to "what do I have to tell the bishop?", not "what is ok with God?" Then if things would go too far, I'd think, "well, I have to talk to the bishop anyway, might as well have some fun". Admittedly, a really screwed up way of looking at things, but had there not been so much emphasis on confession, I may have looked at things a little differently.

So what's the purpose of confession and church discipline? Any thoughts?

[MikeWaters]

well, the by the book answer is that it is to help someone repent.

In some ways it is like the Catholics praying to Saints. The Saint acts as an intercessory between you and God. In the same way, a Bishop is viewed as an intercessory between you and God. Except it seems, instead of the Saint advocating for you to the Father, the Bishop advocates for God to you.

At least, it could be viewed as that.

It's a shame that fear of this process keeps people away from the church. I'm not sure that this process should even be considered in the case of someone like your sister, from what I hear from you.

If you are the Stake President, and you screw up but you won't be exed. But if you are a screw up, and coming back, it's highly doubtful you will be ex'd.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

well, the by the book answer is that it is to help someone repent.

In some ways it is like the Catholics praying to Saints. The Saint acts as an intercessory between you and God. In the same way, a Bishop is viewed as an intercessory between you and God. Except it seems, instead of the Saint advocating for you to the Father, the Bishop advocates for God to you.

At least, it could be viewed as that.

It's a shame that fear of this process keeps people away from the church. I'm not sure that this process should even be considered in the case of someone like your sister, from what I hear from you.

If you are the Stake President, and you screw up but you won't be exed. But if you are a screw up, and coming back, it's highly doubtful you will be ex'd.

I can see that in some cases, having an extra person to counsel with would be helpful. But often times, that person isn't trained properly (think porn addiction, same-sex attraction, etc) and ends up doing as much or more harm as good.

Additionally, the idea of having to go through the bishop first can be an impediment to doing everything else you need to do. Or it can distract your attention from the real issues involved. There are real, dominant consequences to church discipline (even not taking the sacrament--this was not something I wanted to explain to my parents, so often I would just be too late to Sacrament meeting), and they take attention away from the real eternal consequences.

[Indy Coug]

My personal guess (and this is nothing more than a wild hunch) is that she wouldn't be excommunicated, but she probably wouldn't immediately be able to hold callings or go to the temple until some period of time elapses. This may or may not require a formal disciplinary council, but I would lean towards thinking it wouldn't.

$0.02

[Tex]

I don't have a lot of time to pontificate on this at the moment, but maybe I will later.

I do want to say, though, that the bishop is not a go-between the sinner and the Lord (as in Mike's Catholic analogy). When dealing with people who have committed serious transgression, he fills two roles: the common judge and as a counselor.

The bishop is called a "common judge in Israel" because he judges worthiness. He represents the church and its policies and standards, and only represents the Lord as it concerns those things. This is where potential church discipline comes into play.

The bishop is also a counselor. He helps the sinner to understand the gospel, understand what forgiveness means and how to receive it, understand how to recognize the influence of the spirit, and so forth.

He is NOT a replacement for the Lord as it concerns forgiveness, nor does he represent Him in that way. He does not bestow forgiveness. He does not grant absolution.

Repentance is still between the sinner and the Lord.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

My personal guess (and this is nothing more than a wild hunch) is that she wouldn't be excommunicated, but she probably wouldn't immediately be able to hold callings or go to the temple until some period of time elapses. This may or may not require a formal disciplinary council, but I would lean towards thinking it wouldn't.

$0.02

My hunch is about the same.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

He is NOT a replacement for the Lord as it concerns forgiveness, nor does he represent Him in that way. He does not bestow forgiveness. He does not grant absolution.

Repentance is still between the sinner and the Lord.

Catholics make a similar argument about their prayers to saints.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Catholics make a similar argument about their prayers to saints.

I'm not a Catholicism expert, but as I understand it from my friends, their saints act as advocates for them to God.

That is not the role the bishop fills, nor should a member seek his counsel for that purpose.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm not a Catholicism expert, but as I understand it from my friends, their saints act as advocates for them to God.

That is not the role the bishop fills, nor should a member seek his counsel for that purpose.

I clarified that I see the Bishop as seeing himself as a messenger and advocate of the Father. In other words, God inspires the Bishop to help you with the process of repentance. Yes, he is an inspired intercessory, a human guide to the processes that the Father prescribes.

This is what is believed, I think.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I clarified that I see the Bishop as seeing himself as a messenger and advocate of the Father. In other words, God inspires the Bishop to help you with the process of repentance. Yes, he is an inspired intercessory, a human guide to the processes that the Father prescribes.

This is what is believed, I think.

The bishop does not have an intercessory role. That is a sepcific term and the bishop does not fill that role. He is a counselor and a common judge as Tex has said, but is not in an intercessory capacity.