do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Levin

I think Creekster nailed it on the head here, and I'm surprised it didn't end the discussion.

The decision to be baptized is about being informed of Christ, sin, repentance, and responsibility. It is not about "Islam v. Christianity" or "Baptist v. Mormon," as some of you have weirdly assumed. An 8-year-old child who understands what it means to do wrong, what it means to be forgiven, and it what it means that Christ sacrificed himself for us is ready to "choose" to be baptized.

It's interesting how you all are assuming a definition of "decision." A "decision," to Waters and the likeminded, is something that only follows the presentation of the available alternatives and a weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Only in the ivory tower does such a definition apply. In reality, a "decision" is one where the moral implications are apprehended. As it relates to sin, repentance, forgiveness, and Christ, most 8-year olds are fully capable of apprehending the moral implications of baptism.

A 9 year old is required to be taught about the apostasy, tithing, chastity, etc. to be baptized.

An 8 year old is not.

That makes sense.

The bar that the church places in front of 8 year olds is a 10 minute interview with a Bishop. Whereas for a nine year old it is a series of missionary visits probably over weeks and a meeting with the Bishop.

Which kid has invested more, assuming the same education in the church over those 8 and 9 years, respectively?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Levin

I think Creekster nailed it on the head here, and I'm surprised it didn't end the discussion.

The decision to be baptized is about being informed of Christ, sin, repentance, and responsibility. It is not about "Islam v. Christianity" or "Baptist v. Mormon," as some of you have weirdly assumed. An 8-year-old child who understands what it means to do wrong, what it means to be forgiven, and it what it means that Christ sacrificed himself for us is ready to "choose" to be baptized.

It's interesting how you all are assuming a definition of "decision." A "decision," to Waters and the likeminded, is something that only follows the presentation of the available alternatives and a weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Only in the ivory tower does such a definition apply. In reality, a "decision" is one where the moral implications are apprehended. As it relates to sin, repentance, forgiveness, and Christ, most 8-year olds are fully capable of apprehending the moral implications of baptism.

Every RM here probably baptized at least one person that wasn't as prepared or had a made a less informed decision as many 8 yo's in the church.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

A 9 year old is required to be taught about the apostasy, tithing, chastity, etc. to be baptized.

An 8 year old is not.

That makes sense.

That is a differnt issue. The question raised is can an 8 year old choose. What a 9 year old must be taught is another matter altogether.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by jay santos

The three i was referring to, you, MW, and DDD don't have kids that age. I have three that have passed that age and one close. So yeah I guess I do claim special insight. Adam's just trolling.

Kids from a very young age learn concepts of obedience, faith, repentance, personal responsibility, etc.

I totally reject Adam's comparison to eating veggies. Many (at least mine did, can't speak for all) have true beginnings of faith in Christ and testimony of the gospel. They understand what baptism is and why it is necessary and they make a concious decision to follow Christ by being baptized.

It's extremely patronizing and inaccurate to categorize an 8 yo's decision to get baptized as being forced to comply with their parents wishes.

My kids turn 4 in Dec, so you are correct that i do not have direct exposure to the psyche of an 8 year old.

I am not suggesting that kids are forced into baptism. I am simply saying that it is silly to suggest that an 8 year old is making an "informed" decision.

They are given no other choice in the matter, no other options. Nobody ever entertains the notion of NOT getting baptized. It is simply an assumption that gets ingrained into their heads from an early age.

While my kids are not 8, they are in primary. they have already received lessons on baptism and have been to stake baptisms twice.....the Primary leader tells all the kids that they will all be baptized when they turn 8, as well. They get indoctrinated early on. We all do.

I am not against it. I have said a bunch of times that I am following the same pattern. But the practice of baptizing an 8 year old is closer to social coersion than it is to informed convenant making.

Talk about extremely patronizing.....comparing an 8 year old's "decision" to be baptized to someone else who has actually studied, pondered, made a conscious decision as to how baptism will require an internal change, the knowledge that you are taking upon yourself the name of Christ, etc.. etc...8 year old kids lack that capacity. These are the same 8 year olds that would eat an entire bag of candy for dinner if you let them.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by creekster

That is a differnt issue. The question raised is can an 8 year old choose. What a 9 year old must be taught is another matter altogether.

No it's not.

The requirements for baptism should be the same for all. A policy that has different requirements for baptism does not mesh with the scriptures.

If it is simply believing in Christ, seeking repentance, then that is what it should be.

[MikeWaters]

The sisters in my mission chose to have their "investigator" baptized on his 9th birthday, so he wouldn't be a child of record, but instead would be a convert baptism.

I thought that was a nice resume padder.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

A 9 year old is required to be taught about the apostasy, tithing, chastity, etc. to be baptized.

An 8 year old is not.

That makes sense.

An 8-year old is too. This is the difference, Waters. For 8-year olds, the Church assumes that the child has been taught about such principles by the parents or at Church.

At some point, the Church has to draw a line to eliminate the presumption, and it is perfectly reasonable to do so at 9. If a child is baptized after 8, it is more likely than not that the child either was not raised in the church, or was not raised in full activity (or had a father like Waters, which falls into a different category).

And think about the discussions taught to 9-year olds. Have you never attended one? They cover "tithing" and the other items on your list in very simplistic, cursory ways. Any child who has been semi-active in primary will have been taught these principles to a much greater degree.

It's about the assumption, Waters, and it is one the Church is perfectly reasonable to make.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

No it's not.

The requirements for baptism should be the same for all. A policy that has different requirements for baptism does not mesh with the scriptures.

If it is simply believing in Christ, seeking repentance, then that is what it should be.

It's about presumptions and assumptions.

[MikeWaters]

Yeah, I'm always surprised with the prophetic annoucements from Levin and Creekster don't end all debate.

Creekster and Levin, are saying, I suppose that there is no difference between the moral reasoning of a 8 and 9 year old, but that there is one between the ages of 7 and 8.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yeah, I'm always surprised with the prophetic annoucements from Levin and Creekster don't end all debate.

Creekster and Levin, are saying, I suppose that there is no difference between the moral reasoning of a 8 and 9 year old, but that there is one between the ages of 7 and 8.

So what's your basic problem with D&C 68?