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Old 08-14-2008, 06:08 PM   #41
Indy Coug
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Originally Posted by OrangeUte View Post
nice job handling the truth. you're like my 7 year old.
So calling someone a "fag" in jest makes me a "homophobic ass"? Yeah, that's some iron-clad logic.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:16 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
So calling someone a "fag" in jest makes me a "homophobic ass"? Yeah, that's some iron-clad logic.
thanks for reminding me. you're not just homophobic, you are also an ass. i forgot that i had added that in there.

it's not just that you called him that name, but it's also the positions you've taken. that you called ddd that only confirmed to me that you are what you seem - a homophobic ass.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by OrangeUte View Post
thanks for reminding me. you're not just homophobic, you are also an ass. i forgot that i had added that in there.

it's not just that you called him that name, but it's also the positions you've taken. that you called ddd that only confirmed to me that you are what you seem - a homophobic ass.
And the position that gay marriage is not ordained of God is "homophobic"? Is it that simple?
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:20 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
And the position that gay marriage is not ordained of God is "homophobic"? Is it that simple?
if you hadn't used that word, i would have just figured you for a mullah. you may be a mullah, but you also seem homophobic and have lost credibility with me on this issue.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:21 PM   #45
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if you hadn't used that word, i would have just figured you for a mullah. you may be a mullah, but you also seem homophobic and have lost credibility with me on this issue.
LOL, don't be trying that line here. I never had any credibility with you on this issue before because you've already made up your mind on the topic and you don't respect any view to the contrary.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:25 PM   #46
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LOL, don't be trying that line here. I never had any credibility with you on this issue before because you've already made up your mind on the topic and you don't respect any view to the contrary.
just because my mind is made up doesn't mean i don't respect contrary views. your use of that word made plain that you lack taste and discretion and/or have poor sense of humor. it's clearly a word you use to describe homosexuals, and i don't like it.

do you use similar words to describe folks of different ethnicities?
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:37 PM   #47
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just because my mind is made up doesn't mean i don't respect contrary views. your use of that word made plain that you lack taste and discretion and/or have poor sense of humor. it's clearly a word you use to describe homosexuals, and i don't like it.

do you use similar words to describe folks of different ethnicities?
I probably haven't used the word "fag" since college referring to my friends and roommates. That's been 16 years. I can't swear it hasn't happened between then and now as I don't keep a lengthy journal of everything I say and write, but it certainly isn't part of my regular vocabulary.

You don't like the term? Fine, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. You don't think I'm funny? Welcome to the club.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:42 PM   #48
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A critique of the statement:

Quote:
The focus of the Church’s involvement is specifically same-sex marriage and its consequences. The Church does not object to rights (already established in California) regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the family or the constitutional rights of churches and their adherents to administer and practice their religion free from government interference.
The thing that they don't say is that the church supported Proposition 2 in Utah that prohibited the recognition of "any legal status identical or similar to marriage." In other words, there is a strong argument there that the church is also opposed to civil unions. They would have gay couples hire a lawyer and pay thousands of dollars to achieve some of the rights that would be accorded in a civil union. Someone is welcome to provide an alternative viewpoint that the church supports or is willing to tolerate civil unions, but I don't believe it can be made. So the above paragraph in my opinion, is disingenuous.

Quote:
The Church has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are proper only between a husband and a wife united in the bonds of matrimony.
Obviously, historically, this is not true. See polygamy.

Quote:
As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility.
I'm pleased with this paragraph, as I choose to assume it means that my involvement can be zero. I'm not as pleased that they do not offer the notion that church members can disagree. But it's a start.

Quote:
Marriage between a man and a woman is central to the plan of salvation. The sacred nature of marriage is closely linked to the power of procreation. Only a man and a woman together have the natural biological capacity to conceive children. This power of procreation – to create life and bring God’s spirit children into the world – is sacred and precious. Misuse of this power undermines the institution of the family and thereby weakens the social fabric.[4] Strong families serve as the fundamental institution for transmitting to future generations the moral strengths, traditions, and values that sustain civilization. As the Universal Declaration of Human Rights affirms, “The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society.”[5]
This is a minor point, however I think it is still interesting. Why the dictum that General Authorities get married as soon as possible after their spouses die, when such unions, biologically speaking, because of age, cannot produce children. Of course, we all know that there are other reasons for marriage. But this is ignored in this paragraph.

Quote:
Marriage is not primarily a contract between individuals to ratify their affections and provide for mutual obligations.
And here we see that the church rejects the notion of intimacy as not "primary" to marriage. I don't think most church members, or human beings in the United States, would agree with this.

Quote:
High rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births have resulted in an exceptionally large number of single parents in American society. Many of these single parents have raised exemplary children; nevertheless, extensive studies have shown that in general a husband and wife united in a loving, committed marriage provide the optimal environment for children to be protected, nurtured, and raised.[6]
This is an aside: this reminds me of the church's strong urging (command, almost) for children born out of wedlock to be given up for adoption. Yet, science tells us (see Freakonomics), that adopted kids do worse than their non-adopted peers. Of course, the factors are complex, but I think this is worth noting.

Quote:
Court decisions in Massachusetts (2004) and California (2008) have allowed same-sex marriages. This trend constitutes a serious threat to marriage and family. The institution of marriage will be weakened, resulting in negative consequences for both adults and children.
That the institution of marriage will be weakened and adults and children will be hurt is stated, as if obvious, with no explanation. This is a critical flaw.

Quote:
Forty-four states have passed legislation making clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. More than half of those states, twenty-seven in all, have done so by constitutional amendments like the ones pending in California, Arizona, and Florida.[12]

In contrast, those who would impose same-sex marriage on American society have chosen a different course. Advocates have taken their case to the state courts, asking judges to remake the institution of marriage that society has accepted and depended upon for millennia. Yet, even in this context, a broad majority of courts – six out of eight state supreme courts – have upheld traditional marriage laws. Only two, Massachusetts and now California, have gone in the other direction, and then, only by the slimmest of margins – 4 to 3 in both cases.
The argument here is that the church is with majority opinion in the United States, and that the defenders of traditional marriage are honorable in their tactics, while the proponents of gay marriage use liberal courts to achieve their ends, which is a form of subterfuge, they are basically saying. This argument evaporates if Proposition 8 fails. It would mean that this "moral high ground" of going to be the plebes and winning would be undone. Hence the strong feelings, and I daresay, panic. I believe that the Massachusetts legislators and people have considered amendments to undo gay marriage, but have rejected them. Are we next to hear about the tyranny of representative government and legislators?

Quote:
In sum, there is very strong agreement across America on what marriage is.
This is "the people are on our side" argument. What they neglect to say is that American opinion is increasingly shifting towards acceptance of the idea of gay marriage and civil unions. A poll in June 2008 by CBS News showed that 58% of Americans support either gay marriage or civil unions. http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/MAYB-GAYMARRIAGE.pdf

Quote:
Because this question strikes at the very heart of the family, because it is one of the great moral issues of our time, and because it has the potential for great impact upon the family, the Church is speaking out on this issue, and asking members to get involved.
This of course is one of my pet peeves: the church's political inaction on the great moral issues of our times. Can we come up with just one other political issue, that is one of the great moral challenges of our times, that the church as involved itself in? Earlier in the article, abortion is described as killing of "taking the lives of 45 million innocents." That's a curious description based on the church's political actions and it's own policy regarding abortions, and the implied theoligical beliefs that underpin the policy. Is abortion not more important than gay marriage, in terms of moral issues of the past 30 years?

Quote:
Those who favor homosexual marriage contend that “tolerance” demands that they be given the same right to marry as heterosexual couples. But this appeal for “tolerance” advocates a very different meaning and outcome than that word has meant throughout most of American history and a different meaning than is found in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Savior taught a much higher concept, that of love. “Love thy neighbor,” He admonished.[13] Jesus loved the sinner even while decrying the sin, as evidenced in the case of the woman taken in adultery: treating her kindly, but exhorting her to “sin no more.”[14] Tolerance as a gospel principle means love and forgiveness of one another, not “tolerating” transgression.
Does not adultery require participation from a married individual? Isn't marriage a hedge against promiscuity? So for gays, wouldn't marriage be a hedge against promiscuity? Isn't marriage a promise to be monogamous? Of course, like IndyCoug has shown in a different thread, there is no distinction in the minds of these folks between a monogamous gay man, and one that is promiscuous. They are both involved in a revolting act, and anyon that would say it is different is a "moral relativist" which God is not. They out of hand reject the notion that gay marriage can improve the moral life of gays.

Quote:
The prospect of same-sex marriage has already spawned legal collisions with the rights of free speech and of action based on religious beliefs. For example, advocates and government officials in certain states already are challenging the long-held right of religious adoption agencies to follow their religious beliefs and only place children in homes with both a mother and a father. As a result, Catholic Charities in Boston has stopped offering adoption services.
Again, another disingenuous passage, which DDD has pointed out. The Catholic charities were required state non-discrimination laws because they accepted public moneys, and since they didn't want to follow the rules, they lost the money, and decided to close shop. This is fear-mongering.

Quote:
Other advocates of same-sex marriage are suggesting that tax exemptions and benefits be withdrawn from any religious organization that does not embrace same-sex unions.[17]
If this is the most important moral issue of our time, I think the church ought to be willing to lose it's tax exemption over it.

Quote:
Student religious organizations are being told by some universities that they may lose their campus recognition and benefits if they exclude same-sex couples from club membership.[18]
Didn't Salt Lake City schools close down all extra-curricular clubs in order to prevent gay students from having their own club? Talk about oppressive. The student who organized the effort on behalf of the gay club committed suicide, lest we think there are no consequences to such actions.

Quote:
Perhaps the most common argument that proponents of same-sex marriage make is that it is essentially harmless and will not affect the institution of traditional heterosexual marriage in any way. “It won’t affect you, so why should you care?’ is the common refrain. While it may be true that allowing single-sex unions will not immediately and directly affect all existing marriages, the real question is how it will affect society as a whole over time, including the rising generation and future generations. The experience of the few European countries that already have legalized same-sex marriage suggests that any dilution of the traditional definition of marriage will further erode the already weakened stability of marriages and family generally. Adopting same-sex marriage compromises the traditional concept of marriage, with harmful consequences for society.
It's nice that the church acknowledges there is validity to the statement that gay marriage will likely not harm existing marriages. Where is the evidence that gay marriage has harmed European societies? They are using a circular argument and are wholly unconvincing, citing nothing.

Quote:
Marriage is fundamentally an unselfish act: legally protected because only a male and female together can create new life, and because the rearing of children requires a life-long commitment, which marriage is intended to provide. Societal recognition of same-sex marriage cannot be justified simply on the grounds that it provides self-fulfillment to its partners, for it is not the purpose of government to provide legal protection to every possible way in which individuals may pursue fulfillment. By definition, all same-sex unions are infertile, and two individuals of the same gender, whatever their affections, can never form a marriage devoted to raising their own mutual offspring.

It is true that some same-sex couples will obtain guardianship over children –through prior heterosexual relationships, through adoption in the states where this is permitted, or by artificial insemination. Despite that, the all-important question of public policy must be: what environment is best for the child and for the rising generation?
This is kind of amusing. First the argument is made that gays can't form families. Then the next paragraph admits that gays can form families. But bascially says they are inferior families.

Quote:
Traditional marriage provides a solid and well-established social identity to children. It increases the likelihood that they will be able to form a clear gender identity, with sexuality closely linked to both love and procreation. By contrast, the legalization of same-sex marriage likely will erode the social identity, gender development, and moral character of children. Is it really wise for society to pursue such a radical experiment without taking into account its long-term consequences for children?
I have already referred to studies that show children of gay couples are not more likely to be gay. That's why the assertion of "gender identity" is uncited. Is there any evidence that gay couples produce children with inferior "moral character." I think that is offensive.

We have a federalist system. States experiment. Not all states have to follow suit. Is it so bad for two states to try something out? If gay marriage is as terrible as the church says, and is as damaging as they say, won't the evidence become apparent to other states over time? Fear-mongering.

Quote:
As just one example of how children will be adversely affected, the establishment of same-sex marriage as a civil right will inevitably require mandatory changes in school curricula. When the state says that same-sex unions are equivalent to heterosexual marriages, the curriculum of public schools will have to support this claim. Beginning with elementary school, children will be taught that marriage can be defined as a relation between any two adults and that consensual sexual relations are morally neutral. Classroom instruction on sex education in secondary schools can be expected to equate homosexual intimacy with heterosexual relations. These developments will create serious clashes between the agenda of the secular school system and the right of parents to teach their children traditional standards of morality.
40 years ago, I bet the church was very upset about sex ed curriculums stating that masturbation is normal. What has been the societal effect of this? What are supposed to teach? That it's not ok to be gay?

Quote:
Finally, throughout history the family has served as an essential bulwark of individual liberty. The walls of a home provide a defense against detrimental social influences and the sometimes overreaching powers of government. In the absence of abuse or neglect, government does not have the right to intervene in the rearing and moral education of children in the home. Strong families are thus vital for political freedom. But when governments presume to redefine the nature of marriage, issuing regulations to ensure public acceptance of non-traditional unions, they have moved a step closer to intervening in the sacred sphere of domestic life. The consequences of crossing this line are many and unpredictable, but likely would include an increase in the power and reach of the state toward whatever ends it seeks to pursue.
Remember the earlier section where the church argued that courts are bad, but votes from the people and state legislators are good? Well, predictably, they come to the conclusion that "governments", i.e. the voice of the people, are bad. That the people should not in fact be able to decide to institute gay marriage. "A step closer"--what does that mean. It means "while they haven't intervened in the moral education of children in the home" it sure does make us uncomfortable? I think what is implied is a threat to disengage with public life, to give strength to homeschoolers, voucher advocates, and people who believe that laws only apply to other people. Does the church get upset when states mandate that "intelligent design" be taught in schools? Of course not. Because for them, it is not a governmental abuse, and has nothing to do with injecting values that some parents might find abhorrent.

Quote:
Strong, stable families, headed by a father and mother, are the anchor of civilized society. When marriage is undermined by gender confusion and by distortions of its God-given meaning, the rising generation of children and youth will find it increasingly difficult to develop their natural identity as a man or a woman. Some will find it more difficult to engage in wholesome courtships, form stable marriages, and raise yet another generation imbued with moral strength and purpose.
Interesting and ironic that the words "confusion" and "distortions" are used. I think those words apply to this editorial. I don't know, maybe kids in Massaschusetts are finding it hard to find their gender identity. Haven't heard anything about it though. Maybe people in Massachusetts have called off heterosexual weddings, have started being more promiscuous, and have disregarded their own moral codes as a result of gay marriage. Maybe. But it certainly doesn't strike me as an obvious conclusion.

........

One thing that is obviously missing from the editorial is this: if gay marriage is evil, shouldn't it harm those that participate in it? In other words, for a gay couple, marriage should be even more damaging to their morality than just living together.

For me, the opposite conclusion makes more sense. If a gay couple legally commits to each other, with attendant legal responsibilities, then I think they have improved their lives. Because my bias is that commitment is good. It's what I have been taught my whole life. By the church!

The greatest moral threat of our lifetimes, if the editorial is correct that it is, ought to be somewhat more self-apparent. The editorial ought to have been more compelling. At least, in my opinion. I do acknowledge the possibility that the church is completely right on this. But I am in the situation where neither my heart nor my mind agrees, and the only counter I have is a poorly argued editorial.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:46 PM   #49
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As far as polygamy versus "sexual relations between husband and wife", as far as I know the church didn't allow 3-somes, 4-somes or 17-somes in polygamous households and that relations were strictly between one man and one woman at any given time.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:49 PM   #50
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So calling someone a "fag" in jest makes me a "homophobic ass"? Yeah, that's some iron-clad logic.
Doesn't calling someone a n----r in jest betray a racist mindset?
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