Reorganized LDS

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Faith sucks.

Actually, I read that something like 89% of Americans still believe in Virgin birth. But as MikeWaters has noted, don't ever expect most people to be consistent.

[scottie]

Seattle,

When you look back, what was the first thing that gave you a serious doubt about the LDS church and your testimony? I'm sure you've previously posted that, but I do want to search thru all of your posts.

Scottie

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by scottie

Seattle,

When you look back, what was the first thing that gave you a serious doubt about the LDS church and your testimony? I'm sure you've previously posted that, but I do want to search thru all of your posts.

Scottie

Your question assumes he will admit he had one. Many apostates will claim they always doubted but went along for family's sake, or never really investigated Church claims, until some seminal event prompted a light to go off, such as a President claiming a certain Equadorian tribe to be "true Lamanites", when some other shred of evidence suggests otherwise.

SU's answer will be interesting, but in asking apostates, you may be well-advised to ask if they claim to ever have known or believed in the Church. The answers typically fall into one or two camps, "never believed and left as soon as I had a chance", or "some doubts arose after I read this hidden gem, Fawn Brodie's book."

And I'm not claiming it's true for SU, as I don't know and don't believe it's true for him, but no apostate ever admits, "well, I was really horny and it didn't fit well with my value system to go hump a lot of gals, so out of a desire to laid more often, and so I could feel good about having a few beers, I just kinda gave it up."

Nobody has any idea as to the quantities, but it would be a rare person who would admit the third category; most will try some noble reason.

An oddity though is how many will declare, "now I'm no longer bound by those onerous self-righteous old men, I can go out and drink a martini without feeling guilty." Why saucing your brain is the pinnacle of freedom is beyond me.

I'd love to read the first apostate that states, "hey, I don't want to drink because it doesn't do anything for the body, and I don't want to hump licentiously, but heck the doctrines just don't make sense." There must people around who fit that description but they are not many.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I'd love to read the first apostate that states, "hey, I don't want to drink because it doesn't do anything for the body, and I don't want to hump licentiously, but heck the doctrines just don't make sense." There must people around who fit that description but they are not many.

I want to hump licentiously, but I don't do it because I'm married and I value commitment. There is a misconception that people leave the Church because they want to lead hedonistic lives. Believe it or not, people who are not religious have been known to have morals.

It really isn't that mysterious why people leave the Church. They leave because they stop believing. There was a time when I believed, but eventually I realized I was wrong. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. The fact that I eventually stopped believing in Santa did not signal a weakness in character. I did not stop believing in Santa so I could have an excuse to not be a good boy all year. I stopped believing because I simply realized that Santa didn't really exist.

[pecking]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I want to hump licentiously, but I don't do it because I'm married and I value commitment. There is a misconception that people leave the Church because they want to lead hedonistic lives. Believe it or not, people who are not religious have been known to have morals.

It really isn't that mysterious why people leave the Church. They leave because they stop believing. There was a time when I believed, but eventually I realized I was wrong. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. The fact that I eventually stopped believing in Santa did not signal a weakness in character. I did not stop believing in Santa so I could have an excuse to not be a good boy all year. I stopped believing because I simply realized that Santa didn't really exist.

non_seq, do you believe in a god?

[MikeWaters]

I have a friend who is the rare apostate that grew up in the church, is well-versed in church history, does not discount his spiritual experiences in the church, and attends a liberal protestant church currently.

In other words, he doesn't poo-poo the worldview that includes the Spirit. Because, honestly, that is the divide for me.

Then again, when I hear from someone how God is guiding them into licentiousness, my eyes tend to glaze over. "God wants me to be a selfish bastard, lucky for me."

The church goes on, with or without us.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

I think those that stay in the church after realizing that the facsimiles are Osiris and not Abraham demonstrate large amounts of faith.

Faith is an interesting vehicle as it leads some people to do insane actions to prove their resolve.

Faith moves mountains many times out of sheers stupidity.

I'll take faith over someone's tendencies to over-analyze everything to the umpteenth degree any day.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I want to hump licentiously, but I don't do it because I'm married and I value commitment. There is a misconception that people leave the Church because they want to lead hedonistic lives. Believe it or not, people who are not religious have been known to have morals.

It really isn't that mysterious why people leave the Church. They leave because they stop believing. There was a time when I believed, but eventually I realized I was wrong. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. The fact that I eventually stopped believing in Santa did not signal a weakness in character. I did not stop believing in Santa so I could have an excuse to not be a good boy all year. I stopped believing because I simply realized that Santa didn't really exist.

I'm not disputing you're a moral person, but there is a partial disconnect for me.

A person who grows up not believing in God, but being taught certain things are socially right or wrong because society functions better if certain activities are avoided and performed is understandable. And many of these persons are not religious. This group forms a significant class of persons.

A person who once believed, having been taught that there are certain divine laws of justice and righteousness which lead to ultimate happiness, and thereafter rejects that tenet, for that person to fall back onto what society teaches, seems disconnected. Society is often wrong. I suppose such a person can fall back on to utilitarian views, which make a lot of sense independent of right and wrong. But once one rejects divinity, how can there be anything more than utilitarianism?

I recognize people bounce from belief system to belief system, but either there is a universal purpose and right or wrong, or there's not. And then one should act pragmatically and according to utility or not.

The belief systems that posit that anything is okay, or that you just rely upon "enlightened" within society make no sense to, oversimplifying the matter.

And in a more practical sense, if one goes from restrictive to less restrictive, what determines how unrestrictive a person becomes?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I'm not disputing you're a moral person, but there is a partial disconnect for me.

Are you saying that somehow "it does not follow"?

At least Non Sequitur gave you fair warning.

[Archaea]

If one abandons divine law, what purpose is there in being moral?

Utility is the only argument that I can come up with, because society is a piece of crap generally. So I don't give a rat's ass about society, except through the broader sense of seeing them as my brothers and sisters. If I didn't believe that, then to hell with them.

No Non Seq is a moral person, trustworthy and worthy of friendship, but how a person who dismisses divine law, asks of himself to be moral is a mystery other than utility, or "Mom" taught me and I respect them.