How old were you when you first learned JS practiced polyandry?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'm not buying it. There just isn't any recorded history of God allowing something of this magnitude going on against His will without subsequent Divine intervention/correction; whereas there are several examples that show God steps in when His prophets stray off the straight and narrow.

And why would people record such instances? Wouldn't a record of such instances give people an excuse to go do whatever they wished? The logic doesn't appear sound.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

And why would people record such instances? Wouldn't a record of such instances give people an excuse to go do whatever they wished? The logic doesn't appear sound.

I'm just curious how you, Santos and whomever else can feel so certain that God just threw up his hands and let Joseph Smith et al commit what has been termed in scripture the most grevious sin next to murder without direct intervention for so long when there is no recorded precedent for God doing so in the past?

There is no historical/scriptural precedent.

We have ample historical/scriptural precedent indicating the exact opposite, however. We have the story of Joseph Smith pleading with God to let Martin Harris have the 116 pages, despite being told "no" twice and when Martin Harris lost the pages, Joseph Smith lost his ability to translate the plates for a season. That incident is a mere trifle compared to mass adultery in the grand scheme of things.

The assertion that God somehow just let 'Joseph do what Joseph got to do' is unfathomably intellectually and scripturally incongruous.

[ute4ever]

Here is an idea:

Years ago, God commanded that the saints live the law of consecration, but it was later recanted because the saints were not ready for it.

Perhaps the law of polygamy is the same way, being more profound than we realize, insomuch that even our mortal prophets struggle with certain, um, side effects. As much as we tend to deify our prophets while still in mortality, the reality is they are subject to the same temptations and weaknesses as the rest of us.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Here is an idea:

Years ago, God commanded that the saints live the law of consecration, but it was later recanted because the saints were not ready for it.

Perhaps the law of polygamy is the same way, being more profound than we realize, insomuch that even our mortal prophets struggle with certain, um, side effects. As much as we tend to deify our prophets while still in mortality, the reality is they are subject to the same temptations and weaknesses as the rest of us.

And the Israelites were given a lower law when they were a-whorin' while Moses was getting the original stone etch-a-sketch on Sinai. I accept that members of the church and its leaders fail to fully live according to the commandments of God.

When they do, they are punished for their lack of faithfulness and sometimes they are also given a lower law that will enable them to have a greater measure of obedience, but a corresponding diminished capacity to be blessed for their obedience.

I'm not willing to accept that God is going to passively stand by while His prophets are engaging in repeated gross sexual improprieties.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Oliver Cowdery, in an 1835 letter to W.W. Phelps, describes Joseph Smith:

"I do not pretend that he is not a man subject to passion like other men, beset with infirmities and compassed with weaknesses; but if he is, all men were so before him, and a pretence to the contrary would argue a more than mortal, which would at once destroy the whole system of the religion of the Lord Jesus"

[Sleeping in EQ]

Accounts of Joseph Smith's personal weaknesses:

D&C 1:24 "These commandments…were given unto my servants in their weakness."

D&C 3:6-11,15 "how oft you have transgressed…you should have been faithful."

D&C 5:21 "repent and walk more uprightly…yield to the persuasions of men no more."

D&C 6:19 Oliver Cowdery is directed to "admonish him in his faults."

D&C 20:5 "was entangled again in the vanities of the world."

D&C 24:2 "thou art not excusable in thy trangressions."

D&C 67:5 "he has sinned."

D&C 67:5 "he has sinned."

D&C 67:5 "his imperfections you have known."

D&C 90:17 "be admonished in all your high-mindedness and pride."

D&C 93:47 "have not kept the commandments and must needs stand rebuked."

D&C 111:1 The treasure hunting purposes of the trip to Salem are called "follies."

D&C 132:50 "I…will forgive all your sins."



And from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

Teachings, 89 "a man subject to like passions…"

Teachings, 90 "I may do many things inadvertently that are not right in the sight of God."

Teachings, 216 "I…feel to repent of all my sins."

Teachings, 158 "the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature."

Teachings, 268 "I was but a man…must not expect me to be perfect."

Teachings, 303 "I do not want you to think that I am very righteous."

Teachings, 315 "I am subject to like passions as other men."

Teachings, 368 "I never told you I was perfect."


From The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 238:

"Shed tears of sorrow for my folly in Sufering the adversary of my Soul to have so much power over me as he has had in times past." (letter of Joseph to Emma)


Messenger and Advocate 1 (December, 1834) p. 40

"never have pretended to be any other than a man."



Times and Seasons 4 (May 15, 1843) p. 200

"Did not profess to be a very good man…a sinner like other men."

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Accounts of Joseph Smith's personal weaknesses:

D&C 1:24 "These commandments…were given unto my servants in their weakness."

D&C 3:6-11,15 "how oft you have transgressed…you should have been faithful."

D&C 5:21 "repent and walk more uprightly…yield to the persuasions of men no more."

D&C 6:19 Oliver Cowdery is directed to "admonish him in his faults."

D&C 20:5 "was entangled again in the vanities of the world."

D&C 24:2 "thou art not excusable in thy trangressions."

D&C 67:5 "he has sinned."

D&C 67:5 "he has sinned."

D&C 67:5 "his imperfections you have known."

D&C 90:17 "be admonished in all your high-mindedness and pride."

D&C 93:47 "have not kept the commandments and must needs stand rebuked."

D&C 111:1 The treasure hunting purposes of the trip to Salem are called "follies."

D&C 132:50 "I…will forgive all your sins."



And from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

Teachings, 89 "a man subject to like passions…"

Teachings, 90 "I may do many things inadvertently that are not right in the sight of God."

Teachings, 216 "I…feel to repent of all my sins."

Teachings, 158 "the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature."

Teachings, 268 "I was but a man…must not expect me to be perfect."

Teachings, 303 "I do not want you to think that I am very righteous."

Teachings, 315 "I am subject to like passions as other men."

Teachings, 368 "I never told you I was perfect."


From The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 238:

"Shed tears of sorrow for my folly in Sufering the adversary of my Soul to have so much power over me as he has had in times past." (letter of Joseph to Emma)


Messenger and Advocate 1 (December, 1834) p. 40

"never have pretended to be any other than a man."



Times and Seasons 4 (May 15, 1843) p. 200

"Did not profess to be a very good man…a sinner like other men."

Where is the part that says something to the effect of 'and yet He has allowed me to continue to sleep with other men's wives even though it was evil in His sight'?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

And the Israelites were given a lower law when they were a-whorin' while Moses was getting the original stone etch-a-sketch on Sinai. I accept that members of the church and its leaders fail to fully live according to the commandments of God.

When they do, they are punished for their lack of faithfulness and sometimes they are also given a lower law that will enable them to have a greater measure of obedience, but a corresponding diminished capacity to be blessed for their obedience.

I'm not willing to accept that God is going to passively stand by while His prophets are engaging in repeated gross sexual improprieties.

God does not intervene as much as many would like, it would otherwise destroy free agency.

If we accept the concept that polygamy is ever proper, then perhaps God's eternal view of sexuality is not so prudish as many would have us believe. Thus God did not destroy Joseph for what might be seen as improprieties.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Where is the part that says something to the effect of 'and yet He has allowed me to continue to sleep with other men's wives even though it was evil in His sight'?

Sometimes you can receive forgiveness for things you can't receive permission.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

God does not intervene as much as many would like, it would otherwise destroy free agency.

If we accept the concept that polygamy is ever proper, then perhaps God's eternal view of sexuality is not so prudish as many would have us believe. Thus God did not destroy Joseph for what might be seen as improprieties.

Adam and Eve's offspring committed incest.

Abraham was commanded by God to take Hagar, even though Ishmael didn't receive his birthright.

I think there is ample precedent to show that God has shown more flexibility in what is and isn't sexually permissible, but that 'permissiveness' was not due to individual initiative, but due FIRST to His divine decree. There is ample precedent to show that those that chose to act outside the bounds of what was deemed acceptable by God were condemned for their actions.

I am led to conclude one of two things about the issue of Joseph Smith and polyandry.

1. It didn't happen in the way protrayed by those that wrote about it.
2. God, for whatever reason, signed off on Joseph Smith's polyandric ways, and as such was not sinful, even though that conduct is radically different than the accepted norm in most societies.