Question regarding church discipline - Page 5 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

SoonerCoug · 06-22-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Tex, I'm starting to agree with you on this one.

It's a matter of being in touch with reality. (No pun intended.)

This topic is significant because it has broader implications for the Church as a whole. This thread isn't JUST about Monument to Balzac. It's about major psychological issues that confront Church members regarding sin/guilt/confession/honesty and so forth.

For example, can one become a church leader if he has committed such a minor "sin?" Obviously so, since every man on earth has. But what if he was never willing to confess it? What about bigger sins? Does the confession process select for the dishonest leaders or just honorable ones?

Can a man be a worthy spouse if he has ever masturbated before in his life? Some of my ex-wife's last words as she walked out the door were: "I'm going to find a husband who has never masturbated before." I said: "Good luck."

She literally thought that no honorable priesthood holder had ever committed this "sin" even during his teenage years. And this is a lady with a PhD in biological sciences. I'm telling you, the Church has a way of detaching people from reality sometimes.

MikeWaters · 06-22-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

It's a matter of being in touch with reality. (No pun intended.)

This topic is significant because it has broader implications for the Church as a whole. This thread isn't JUST about Monument to Balzac. It's about major psychological issues that confront Church members regarding sin/guilt/confession/honesty and so forth.

For example, can one become a church leader if he has committed such a minor "sin?" Obviously so, since every man on earth has. But what if he was never willing to confess it? What about bigger sins? Does the confession process select for the dishonest leaders or just honorable ones?

Can a man be a worthy spouse if he has ever masturbated before in his life? Some of my ex-wife's last words as she walked out the door were: "I'm going to find a husband who has never masturbated before." I said: "Good luck."

She literally thought that no honorable priesthood holder had ever committed this "sin" even during his teenage years. And this is a lady with a PhD in biological sciences. I'm telling you, the Church has a way of detaching people from reality sometimes.

Ok, I think I finally found someone on this board who could beat me in arm wrestling.

SoonerCoug · 06-22-2007, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Why is this a problem?

It's a problem because some of the most honest, honorable people are selected against. The same thing happens at BYU. Some of the most honest, good kids are kicked out of school, just because they're honest. When my dad was a bishop at BYU, he said this simple fact was the thing that broke his heart more than anything.

SoonerCoug · 06-22-2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Ok, I think I finally found someone on this board who could beat me in arm wrestling.

My point was that she had a problem with my PHILOSOPHIES.

Not my behavior. She thought I was a bad Mormon because I didn't think God really ordered Nephi to kill Laban, etc.

Goatnapper'96 · 06-22-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

It's a problem because some of the most honest, honorable people are selected against. The same thing happens at BYU. Some of the most honest, good kids are kicked out of school, just because they're honest. When my dad was a bishop at BYU, he said this simple fact was the thing that broke his heart more than anything.

I can understand the getting kicked out of BYU, but who gives your ex-wife's gall stone who is called to leadership? Getting kicked out of BYU has at least some temporal impact on somebody's life, church callings are pointless, at least as I understand the LDS' church theology on the purpose of life.

I don't want to be rude, but I think if your ex's words are what you indicate they are that you could never be objective about this subject. And I am an admitted 'bater........

But I am also the master of the house......

SoonerCoug · 06-22-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I can understand the getting kicked out of BYU, but who gives your ex-wife's gall stone who is called to leadership? Getting kicked out of BYU has at least some temporal impact on somebody's life, church callings are pointless, at least as I understand the LDS' church theology on the purpose of life.

I don't want to be rude, but I think if your ex's words are what you indicate they are that you could never be objective about this subject. And I am an admitted 'bater........

But I am also the master of the house......

You know nothing about my situation and what led to my divorce.

jay santos · 06-22-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I guess my point is this: The problem with Church discipline is that only the people who confess (or get tattled on) end up getting disciplined.

So ultimately, you end up with dishonest scoundrels in charge sometimes, when honest, "confessing scoundrels" might actually be more "worthy."

The only reason this is a problem is if you start from a paradigm where church callings are based on worthiness and the higher you get the more worthy you get. I think it's more beneficial to lose this paradigm than get hung up on why unworthy people are getting promoted.

Goatnapper'96 · 06-22-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

You know nothing about my situation and what led to my divorce.

I only commented on your wife's final comments, which I believe you offered.

I tend to find sweeping generalizations of "mormon culture" concerning how it deals with masturbation a bit over the top. If in fact your wife said what she said on the way out, I find it plausible that the issue of how mormons deal with tossing off, not whether or not you yank it or ever did yank it, is not something you can be exceptionally objective about. I don't need nor want to know the details of your divorce to make such a judgement.

MikeWaters · 06-22-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

You know nothing about my situation and what led to my divorce.

Alfight SC and GN, let's not cross swords. So to speak.

SoonerCoug · 06-22-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

The only reason this is a problem is if you start from a paradigm where church callings are based on worthiness and the higher you get the more worthy you get. I think it's more beneficial to lose this paradigm than get hung up on why unworthy people are getting promoted.

I don't care who is worthy or not. I don't care about leaders in general. I think you guys are missing my point.

My point is that good people (who sin) actually leave or suffer more in the Church just because they are good and honest, whereas many dishonest people who are equally good (who also sin) end up sticking around and thriving just because they're willing to lie.

I think too many honest people end up on the outs because of the way confession is handled in the Church.