REAL Roots of Cougars' Struggles - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

El Guapo · 08-03-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

I was one who selected Other...

I should have put an option as the evolution of the college football game, in that the environment in which BYU did it's damage before has made it harder for them to do today.

I would also pick other, and say that players violating the honor code has been a huge problem -which isn't related to it being more closely enforced either. Any gang rape during any point in time of the existence of BYU (and pretty much any other school) would and should get you expelled. Other violations have also been a result of an athlete doing something that has always been prohibited. The honor code may be tougher now, but what many of the expelled players did would have got them kicked out before the honor code got stricter.

El Guapo · 08-03-2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblue

I voted other because I think it's due to a combination of several items to choose from.

I would say it was a combo of better competition plus the loss of Ricks football which meant a significant drop in talented depth needed to mitigate missions and HC casualties.

Dude- you can pick the top 3 reasons why, and all 3 of those are listed.

tooblue · 08-03-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo

Dude- you can pick the top 3 reasons why, and all 3 of those are listed.

Understood ... but IMO it's how the top three are combined that is the reason, not merely the top three

DrumNFeather · 08-04-2006, 12:08 PM

I think for a long time BYU just rested on reputation and history. They were the preiminent program in the state of Utah that local recruits weren't much of a problem...I think there was an expectation that kids would want to come to BYU with little effort having to be done on BYU's part. (which is still the case in some regards).

I also believe that the loss of Norm Chow was a crushing blow to the last few years. I can't speak to his recruiting efforts, but to tell the guy that he wouldn't even be considered for the job he seemingly held out for for 20 plus years or so? (Incompitent Administration).

The MWC competition certainly got better. Rocky Long, Sunny Lubick, and Fisher DeBarry provided stability and quality teams (most of the time). You know when you have to play those teams that you've got a fight on your hands. Additionally, Joe Glenn and Urban Meyer came in and added energy and fire into the conference....SDSU could be next from that standpoint.

I don't think the hiring of Crowton was as bad as the expectations that were raised by the fans after the 12-2 season. It's like people have said about the Utes last year...they had no where to go but down...that's how things were with the Cougars after the 12-2 year. And yes, Lavell left the cupboard pretty bare, and losing the Ricks program didn't help either.

Finally, I know that there is a popular opinion out there that Crowton ruined Engeman...and while I think that is partially true, the fans were unbelievably hard on him as I recall. I know when Engy played that year as a sophmore QB, he got booed, blamed for the 6-6 season the year before.

Perhaps the biggest downfall of the program is the need to place blame on an individual for every mishap the Cougars have had. First it was Chow, then it was Engy, then it was Ken Schmidt, and some have already set this season up to blame John Beck before the first practice even starts...I don't think blame needs to be placed in some circumstances. Sometimes, you just need to say, we had a bad year and we need to do better...how do we do that with what we've got?

I think Bronco is taking your program in the right direction.

ChinoCoug · 08-04-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo

I would also pick other, and say that players violating the honor code has been a huge problem -which isn't related to it being more closely enforced either. Any gang rape during any point in time of the existence of BYU (and pretty much any other school) would and should get you expelled. Other violations have also been a result of an athlete doing something that has always been prohibited. The honor code may be tougher now, but what many of the expelled players did would have got them kicked out before the honor code got stricter.

Note to El Guapo: There was never a gang rape, in both 2003 and 2004. In just about every other school, the players would have been allowed to stay on.

TheSizzle36 · 08-04-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Note to El Guapo: There was never a gang rape, in both 2003 and 2004. In just about every other school, the players would have been allowed to stay on.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

In 2003 the girl admitted about lying about being raped so SHE wouldn't face the punishment of the honor code.

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

myboynoah · 08-04-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

I think one of the biggest problems is cultural (I think you allude to this in an earlier post). My dealings with the HCO made me feel like I was talking to a Church authority (Bishop, SP, something like that). I was familiar with the Rs of repentance so I applied them with the HCO and was sent on my way. Granted, I was never there for anything more than dress and grooming issues, but others that went for more serious issues reported the same type of treatment. Being white and Mormon probably helps.

Non-Mormons are ill prepared to negotiate the process, since they probably don't fully understand it. Their instinct is probably to deny and wait for proof to be presented, when confession and begging for forgiveness would be much more effective. Tears would also be very helpful. But that doesn't happen because they are not programmed that way. Hence. harsher treatment.

That said, given the publicity surrounding those accused of gang rape, I don't know if anything could have saved them from expulsion. Under the current political climate, I honestly wonder if other schools might not have reacted similarly.

jay santos · 08-04-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

In 2003 the girl admitted about lying about being raped so SHE wouldn't face the punishment of the honor code.

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

I'm about as far to the left as it comes for an active, LDS, BYU fan when it comes to what I think is allowable for non-LDS football players.

But even for me, picking up a 17 year old girl, showing her porn, getting her drunk, and then taking turns with her is a little hard to stomach. That's the kind of offense that actually deserves getting booted. That's predatory behavior at its worse.

Surfah · 08-05-2006, 05:56 AM

I think you can justifiably check off every single answer in the poll and argue each one reasonably well.

As far as other, I agree with Sizzle and Goat...the passing scheme is what allowed us to dominate offensively for a long period of time. Now that other schools are running those offensive schemes with superior athletes and talent we can't keep up.

However, I don't believe losing Ricks was that big of a deal.

My top 3: Lack of talent, poor schemes for talent on the field, and other.

TheSizzle36 · 08-05-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm about as far to the left as it comes for an active, LDS, BYU fan when it comes to what I think is allowable for non-LDS football players.

But even for me, picking up a 17 year old girl, showing her porn, getting her drunk, and then taking turns with her is a little hard to stomach. That's the kind of offense that actually deserves getting booted. That's predatory behavior at its worse.

The situation certainly sucked for all involved. I really quit following what happened exactly, so I don't know who was guilty of what.

And while that isn't cool, ESPECIALLY in the LDS community, I have to believe that the guys who were responsible for what happened thought to themselves, "Well, camp starts soon and we're going to be BYU Students and have to live by the honor code... let's have one last 'party' before practice starts." I don't know the 17 year old girl, and I wasn't there that night so I don't know exactly what happened. If I had to take my guess, that would be WHY they did it. I'm not condoning it in ANY way... but I think that the Honor Code Office should have been fairer with the players actually giving them a chance to let the legal system do its job first, figure out what happened, and then suspend. The players deserve their share of the blame as well, I'm not trying to claim they were without fault here. But just not a good way the whole ordeal was handled, IMO.

View Poll Results: Why have the Cougars' fallen/struggled
Better MWC Competition	13	46.43%
Loss of Ricks football program	8	28.57%
Tighter Honor Code restrictions/enforcement	10	35.71%
Incompetent Coaches	9	32.14%
Incompetent Administration	7	25.00%
Lack of talent in players	9	32.14%
Poor Scheme selection for talent level	6	21.43%
Loss of LaVell	5	17.86%
Injuries	3	10.71%
Other	8	28.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

08-04-2006, 12:08 PM	#14
DrumNFeather Active LDS Ute Fan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nantucket : ) Posts: 2,566	I think for a long time BYU just rested on reputation and history. They were the preiminent program in the state of Utah that local recruits weren't much of a problem...I think there was an expectation that kids would want to come to BYU with little effort having to be done on BYU's part. (which is still the case in some regards). I also believe that the loss of Norm Chow was a crushing blow to the last few years. I can't speak to his recruiting efforts, but to tell the guy that he wouldn't even be considered for the job he seemingly held out for for 20 plus years or so? (Incompitent Administration). The MWC competition certainly got better. Rocky Long, Sunny Lubick, and Fisher DeBarry provided stability and quality teams (most of the time). You know when you have to play those teams that you've got a fight on your hands. Additionally, Joe Glenn and Urban Meyer came in and added energy and fire into the conference....SDSU could be next from that standpoint. I don't think the hiring of Crowton was as bad as the expectations that were raised by the fans after the 12-2 season. It's like people have said about the Utes last year...they had no where to go but down...that's how things were with the Cougars after the 12-2 year. And yes, Lavell left the cupboard pretty bare, and losing the Ricks program didn't help either. Finally, I know that there is a popular opinion out there that Crowton ruined Engeman...and while I think that is partially true, the fans were unbelievably hard on him as I recall. I know when Engy played that year as a sophmore QB, he got booed, blamed for the 6-6 season the year before. Perhaps the biggest downfall of the program is the need to place blame on an individual for every mishap the Cougars have had. First it was Chow, then it was Engy, then it was Ken Schmidt, and some have already set this season up to blame John Beck before the first practice even starts...I don't think blame needs to be placed in some circumstances. Sometimes, you just need to say, we had a bad year and we need to do better...how do we do that with what we've got? I think Bronco is taking your program in the right direction. __________________ "It's not like we played the school of the blind out there." - Brian Johnson.

08-05-2006, 05:56 AM	#19
Surfah Master Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: F'burg, VA Posts: 3,211	I think you can justifiably check off every single answer in the poll and argue each one reasonably well. As far as other, I agree with Sizzle and Goat...the passing scheme is what allowed us to dominate offensively for a long period of time. Now that other schools are running those offensive schemes with superior athletes and talent we can't keep up. However, I don't believe losing Ricks was that big of a deal. My top 3: Lack of talent, poor schemes for talent on the field, and other. __________________ Ernie Johnson: "Auburn is a pretty good school. To graduate from there I suppose you really need to work hard and put forth maximum effort." Charles Barkley: "20 pts and 10 rebounds will get you through also!" Last edited by Surfah; 08-05-2006 at 05:58 AM.