Any geneticists? Question re DNA, Jesus, the Bible

[Oxcoug]

It's a fad in current visual representations - documentaries etc - to depict Jesus as having bit of an Arab appearance.

The rather simplistic thinking seems to be "heyyyy look at that part of the world - they're all Arabs, they've got dark hair and dark skin! Jesus must have looked THAT way!" It becomes a kind of political correctness to make the point that Jesus and his boys were NOT white.

My instinct is that this is garbage. That a genetic pool even in a very large and populated area can be overwhelmed and changed in a very short period. That the Bible isn't kidding when it describes David as being "ruddy" and that the genetic makeup of 1st century Jews could well have had a lot of fair-haired, fair-skinned people. That Mohammed's conquest of the Levant and subsequent incursions from various Muslim dynasties cld have eliminated many of those recessive genes in the region.

And that at the end of the day it's not the least bit implausible that Jesus was just a white dude. Not that it matters to me - I just find it annoying that we now are all expected to assume that he wasn't.

But that's my relatively uninformed view. Anyone? Am I wrong?

[MikeWaters]

It infuriates me when people suggest Jesus wasn't among the most white people that have ever lived. It's hard for me to believe that he wasn't as white as Northern Europeans, as white skin color is a symbol for purity of spirit and heart. The BoM teaches us this. This is just another tactic to demean whites and place brown skin on the highest pedestal. It's complete horse shit!

[Indy Coug]

I'm not a geneticist but what I do know is that Israeli society was so isolated politically, geographically and economically that the gene pool there was extremely shallow. Everyone there looked the same. I think we can state with 100% certainty what level of melanin was in the Savior's skin.

Wait, the father was Deity? What's genetic contribution did he get from that side of the family? How many of those traits might be considered dominant traits?

Until someone has seen God and has gotten a good fix on what God looks like, this discussion is completely ridiculous.

[Oxcoug]

Would it pain you to to respond to the actual question?

I made it pretty clear that the race question itself means nothing to me. I simply tire of the groveling to a new convention in political correctness.

Your pretend indignation is, however, an exact match for the real indignation of a woman I discussed this with in a bar in New York last week - who was upset that anyone would portray Jesus as a white man.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Oxcoug

It's a fad in current visual representations - documentaries etc - to depict Jesus as having bit of an Arab appearance.

The rather simplistic thinking seems to be "heyyyy look at that part of the world - they're all Arabs, they've got dark hair and dark skin! Jesus must have looked THAT way!" It becomes a kind of political correctness to make the point that Jesus and his boys were NOT white.

My instinct is that this is garbage. That a genetic pool even in a very large and populated area can be overwhelmed and changed in a very short period. That the Bible isn't kidding when it describes David as being "ruddy" and that the genetic makeup of 1st century Jews could well have had a lot of fair-haired, fair-skinned people. That Mohammed's conquest of the Levant and subsequent incursions from various Muslim dynasties cld have eliminated many of those recessive genes in the region.

And that at the end of the day it's not the least bit implausible that Jesus was just a white dude. Not that it matters to me - I just find it annoying that we now are all expected to assume that he wasn't.

But that's my relatively uninformed view. Anyone? Am I wrong?

It's not a stupid question (assuming the question was why is Jesus portrayed as a swarthy Semite), but one that's probably ultimately unanswerable.

It's true that ethnic migrations can radically change the physical appearance of a population in a relatively short amount of time. Generally speaking, the ancient Greeks seem to have had much fairer features than do modern Greeks; Alexander the Great had blond hair, and his father Philip was a red-head. When Alexander's armies swept through Asia and established outposts and colonies, the Macedonian/Greek soldiers who stayed passed on their lighter-skinned features to the local gene pool. Eight years ago, I saw kids in Diyarbakir, in eastern Turkey with red hair, freckles, and green eyes - probably the genetic heirs to Macedonian troops. I also believe Dennis Hopper's character in the film True Romance had a less refined theory concerning Sicilians. Of course, this is a sensitive issue today with many populations.

At any rate, people are going to make Jesus (or God) look like themselves, or whatever model they prefer, regardless of possibilities and probabilities.

It probably doesn't really matter what any of these people looked like anyway.

As Xenophanes wrote in the 6th century BCE:

If a horse or lion or a slow ox
had agile hands for paint and sculpture,
the horse would make his god a horse,
the ox would sculpt an ox.

Our gods have flat noses and black skins
say the Ethiopians. The Thracians say
our gods have red hair and hazel eyes. [Barnstone translation]]

[Oxcoug]

In referring to the Thracians (modern day Bulgaria, parts of Turkey and Macedonia - I believe - where there is nearly zero modern incidence of red hair and hazel eyes) Xenophanes refers to them as if they are known to mostly be a people of ... red hair and hazel eyes.

You start to get the feeling that red hair was more common in the ancient world than it is today.

So perhaps you didn't know it when you included it but Xenophanes has answered my question in a way.

[MikeWaters]

Doesn't the KKK or related organizations have a forum you could ask on? I bet they have researched it already.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Oxcoug

In referring to the Thracians (modern day Bulgaria, parts of Turkey and Macedonia - I believe - where there is nearly zero modern incidence of red hair and hazel eyes) Xenophanes refers to them as if they are known to mostly be a people of ... red hair and hazel eyes.

You start to get the feeling that red hair was more common in the ancient world than it is today.

So perhaps you didn't know it when you included it but Xenophanes has answered my question in a way.

Ramses II had red hair. At least, his mummy in the Cairo museum does.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Solon

Ramses II had red hair. At least, his mummy in the Cairo museum does.

Henna?

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Until someone has seen God and has gotten a good fix on what God looks like, this discussion is completely ridiculous.

Are you implying that nobody has seen God? I think Mitt Romney made the same mistake during his campaign and it cost him some points in the Mormon mullah community.