Minimum Wage

[Brian]

get rid of the minimum wage. why isn't there a minium price for a medium sized grapefruit? both are commodities to be traded.

get rid of welfare. then there are no decisions on "how hard/much to work". Let private charities deal with those who can't work. I'd gladly give the portion of my taxes being wasted on welfare to private orgs (and it would likely require a much smaller amount).

Of course, the odds of this ever happening is nigh unto 1 chance in an avagadros number.

[MikeWaters]

how many wards can't even handle their own charity needs? a lot.

[Indy Coug]

We packed two vans to the brim with the Bishop's Storehouse run this month. I guarantee you our branch doesn't even remotely get close to covering the price tag for this from internal fast offerings.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

the kids in my ward, where no one in the family has ever been to college, are facing an uphill battle. As far as I can tell, only one is serious about his academics, and is rising above his background.

College isn't for everybody. Like it or not, there DOES need to be a working class. Those who have the gumption to rise above it, great. Others will not. It sounds cold but it is reality.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

My parents struggled with money for most of my life. But they were far ahead of the desperate poor in that they owned a modest home, and my dad had a PhD. So I guess in a way, I rose above my background in terms of career and education, but not by *that* much. If I hadn't had parents encouraging me to do better, I don't know where I'd be.

I think you'd be surprised. You had the encouragement, but it's a bit of a leap to say you wouldn't be where you are without the encouragement.

IMO, the bottom line is that some of us are wired as "go-getters" and some are not.

[Surfah]

I remember working as a lube tech in high school at Pennzoil when minimum wage in California first went up 10-12 years ago. I had been working my ass off for the better part of a year and earned a few nickel and dime pay raises along the way to the point where I was making a bit more than minimum wage. Then they raised wages and I only made a nickel more an hour over minimum wage and they wouldn't raise me the difference. They hired two new guys that next summer at minimum wage. I had been there a year and I was training these guys making $0.05 more an hour than them. So I quit.

I don't think there should be any minimum wage. Let the market determine that as Brian suggested.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

You don't believe that people are not capable of contributing more than 7.50 an hour? Try this on for size:

I work in the Document Management business. One facet of our business is a service bureau where we scan our customer's documents and convert them into digital images. Before we can scan the documents, they need to be prepared: staples pulled, paperclips removed, tears taped, etc. We have several employees that spend 40 hours a week pulling staples. Most of these employees have extremely low education, skill, common sense, and life mangement skill levels. It takes a special kind of person to sit there and pull staples for 40 hours a week. Most of these people are not self-sufficient from their employment and never will be. They generally live with a parent or some other type of guardian. Most of them don't have their own transportation. Some of them are just housewives looking to make an extra buck with minimal responsibility. Some of these people have been doing this job for 15+ years. We pay them minimum wage.

We charge our customers in terms of cents per image. In the past, we used to charge between $.09 and $.10 per image. Now, we face competition from cheaper service bureaus in the Philippines, Mexico, Bangladesh, etc. Our prices have been driven down to $.05 and $.06. When a minimum wage increase happens, we either have to eat the cost or else raise our price to the customer. If we raise the price to our customers too much then the business will go to Bangladesh. If the business goes to Bangladesh then we will be laying off our lowest skilled workers - workers that can't really compete in any other setting.

Business is like water, traffic, and electricity - they all seek the easiest path. Water will flow to the lowest level. Traffic and electricity will flow through the path of least resistance. Business will go to the lowest cost provider all other things being equal. In a business like software development or other knowledge work, all other things aren't always equal. The Indian programmer may be 5 times as cheap as me but he doesn't have the communication skills and analysis skills and experience that I have. Thus, employers are willing to pay a higher price for my skills because all other things aren't equal. But if the only thing I'm competing on is price then I better watch out because someone will always come along and do it cheaper. In the case of staple pulling, about the only thing there is to compete on is price. It's not like these workers can be "retrained" for a different career. Staple pulling is a stable and safe environment and provides basic employment for people that would find operating the grill or deep frier at McDonalds a dangerous challenge. In my experience as a businessman, raising the minimum wage only hurts the very people it is supposed to be helping.

I just don't understand what makes the do-gooder social engineering type of people, with their "one size fits all" approach and their wasteful, bureaucratically administered 'solutions', so completely unable to grasp the Law of Unintended Consequences?

This is kind of what I mean. There are people who have, as you point out, "low education, skill, common sense, and life management skill levels." But how many of these things cannot ultimately be acquired? Maybe I just have too much faith in humankind to think that we can't find a way to make most people more useful than $7.50/hour.

The best solution is to make workers worth more, which is not the same thing as paying them more. We're not sure how to make them worth more.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by All-American

This is kind of what I mean. There are people who have, as you point out, "low education, skill, common sense, and life management skill levels." But how many of these things cannot ultimately be acquired? Maybe I just have too much faith in humankind to think that we can't find a way to make most people more useful than $7.50/hour.

The best solution is to make workers worth more, which is not the same thing as paying them more. We're not sure how to make them worth more.

if you give them better machines their work will be worth more

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

College isn't for everybody. Like it or not, there DOES need to be a working class. Those who have the gumption to rise above it, great. Others will not. It sounds cold but it is reality.

Let's hold everybody else down and make them dumb and ignorant.

It's cold and it's counterproductive. Everyone can benefit from an education, even the working class.

Education is supposed to be the great equalizer, the vehicle to extend the American dream accessible to everybody.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Environment is A determining factor, not THE determining factor. I don't think there is a single determining factor for anyone. Genetics (including intelligence, physical abilities, leadership and communication skills, etc.), environment (including family, economic circumstances, neighborhood, friends, etc.), and sheer dumb luck all play a part, among others.

I simply find it amusing to hear anyone say "I am a self-made man." Some people have done much more than others to get where they are today, but nobody is truly self-made. And some people, regardless of the effort they put in, are simply never going to be wealthy or economically successful.

Why does the left believe that people are incapable of succeeding without the help of the government?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Why does the left believe that people are incapable of succeeding without the help of the government?

we don't. we're trying to determine the factors that correlate with success so we can determine how the government can expand opportunity to more people. you keep making oversimplistic, dichotomous statements.