"Above my paygrade"

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This is good. I'll weigh in. I agree you're too good for most anyone here. We need to figure out how to start a well known blog of alternative Mormon thought. I can play Satan, the foil. The apostate. I'm afraid we may have to recruit Tex. You show a third way between SU and Tex. TD for comic relief.

WHenever my wifed sees me getting carried away with my sense of self worth she always lobs a getnle but effective pin my way thta pops my balloon. You could use that in your life, or at least on this board.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

WHenever my wifed sees me getting carried away with my sense of self worth she always lobs a getnle but effective pin my way thta pops my balloon. You could use that in your life, or at least on this board.

No, you've humbled me horribly today. I was just joshing.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

We are a good church. We are good at organization, missionary work, and accomplishing tasks. But we are not a particularly thoughtful, philosophical church. We as a people don't produce art, and don't particularly appreciate art. We are a simple people, descended from uneducated pioneers. Ethics/Morality/Philosophy is the luxury of the gilded, not the task of the hand that plants the seeds and thrusts the sickle.

I recall reading a book by P/J. O'Rourke where he compared the naming of things in the east (Athens Georgia) to the things in the west (Red Bluff, AZ) noting that in the East they liked ideas but in the west they had too much to do to linger over ideas. Our church is the church that best represents that idea. We are practical, do not care for pretension and are builders and problem solvers, but we are not great thinkers or philospohers. In fact, we don't trust people that are.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

No, you've humbled me horribly today. I was just joshing.

I doubt the first part but sorry I missed the second part.

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The church has tied itself into a bit of a knot on abortion.

One the one hand, they allow it in the case of rape or incest. On the other hand, the recent press release explaining why gay marriage is wrong called aborted fetuses "lives".

What? "Life" is present in a fetus? Isn't that murder to take an innocent life? Obviously not, because tacit permission is given for rape and incest, should "murder" be desired.

What are we to make of this? For one, the writer(s) of the press release has one opinion, the church another. But beyond that, I think the church is very uncomfortable with theologically labeling women who choose abortion (either as member or non-members) murderers. So, instead, it is basically a "bad thing", with very rough edges when it comes to the church's moral understanding--meaning that there really is no guiding ethical/moral principal in regard to an understanding of the fetus in the church's position.

That is slightly unsatisfying. Again, who comes in with an ethically reasoned position--the Catholic Church. It seems that every area of hot moral dispute, the Catholic Church has a policy and argument. The LDS church does not. According to one writer, as I linked to before, the LDS press release against gay marriage was basically cribbed from Catholic Scholars (and therefore makes a lot more sense to Catholics than Mormons, e.g. marriage/sex is basically solely for reproduction).

Another part of me tells myself that it is ok the church doesn't have an ethical position on the most important moral question of our time--abortion. After all, look at all the crazy, and since rejected, positions taken by apostles and prophets of yester-yore. If not sure, keep your mouth shut. If sure, still keep your mouth shut. If sure and everyone else is sure, keep your mouth shut. These are good policies for religious leaders. Let the people sort it out in their own lives, and look to God instead of Man for answers to these questions.

It is basically worthless to look to the Church Handbook of Instructions (that only a fraction of a percent of male LDS are allowed to read) for deciding an ethical position on abortion. There is none there. So far, it has been about equivalently useful to look to LDS official press releases to come up with a reasoned, ethical position on gay marriage.

We are a good church. We are good at organization, missionary work, and accomplishing tasks. But we are not a particularly thoughtful, philosophical church. We as a people don't produce art, and don't particularly appreciate art. We are a simple people, descended from uneducated pioneers. Ethics/Morality/Philosophy is the luxury of the gilded, not the task of the hand that plants the seeds and thrusts the sickle.

For the life of me I am having a hard time figuring out why you don't go find a church that will allow for the beliefs you have?

Why are you holding in there hoping the LDS church is going to supposedly come around and see the light? See things the way the world would want the church to see them?

You baffle me with all of your anti chruch rhetoric and yet you say you are going in for a temple recommend interview? I would find it funny if I weren't saddend by the fact of how much disdain you hold for the church.

What could you possibly receive from going to the temple? How could you possibly sit in there with all those "mullahs" and find anything remotely uplifting with all of the animosity you have towards the church?

I am totally serious when I say you need to find a religion that will uplift you and at the same time allow you to profess your political and moral views. they are out there, and you would certainly be happier than kicking against the establishment, that you will never change.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

No wonder missionary work is slowing. For each person we bring into the fold, a large number of members are dedicating their time to kicking someone else out of the fold. Makes it tough.

There will always be those who take more pleasure in finding heretics than converts.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by YOhio

There will always be those who take more pleasure in finding heretics than converts.

Exclusion is a critical component of any belief system. Why else would we have 50,000 protestant denominations?

-

Back to the topic at hand, do the GOP leaders actually care about abortion? It seems to me that, with a few exceptions, they're just using us as a pawn in their efforts to stay electable.

[MikeWaters]

I have a friend who is a former EQ President, RM, and well versed in Mormonism, moreso than most everyone on this site. He is now a Baptist, and he explained how he felt like worship with the Baptists (not Southern Baptist, but liberal Baptist) was so much more enjoyable and meaningful to him. The crux of it was that he no longer felt comfortable among the Saints, but he did feel comfortable around this new group. That was a foreign notion to me. But it's becoming more understandable. No longer attending the LDS church is not necessarily a renunciation of the restoration, but rather an admission that the fellowship of the Saints has become so painful as to not merit any joy. Oliver Cowdery, for example. How hard was it for him to attend and worship knowing that Joseph was secretly bedding women. Now THAT is a challenge. When something is repugnant--can you stick with it. Should you stick with it?

At the very least, now, I would probably judge Oliver Cowdery less harshly.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Back to the topic at hand, do the GOP leaders actually care about abortion? It seems to me that, with a few exceptions, they're just using us as a pawn in their efforts to stay electable.

GOP leaders is an awful broad category. There are certainly some GOP pols who are passionate about the issue, annually sponsoring RTL constitutional Amendments and so on. The Tom Coburn-types. And there are others who pay lip service. In reality, the only way GOP leaders can really influence the abortion debate is through the judiciary where they have had mixed results.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Exclusion is a critical component of any belief system. Why else would we have 50,000 protestant denominations?

-

Back to the topic at hand, do the GOP leaders actually care about abortion? It seems to me that, with a few exceptions, they're just using us as a pawn in their efforts to stay electable.

When you point your finger, you have three more pointing right back at you.

Cool huh?

The inclusion in the Dem platform of language to decrease unwanted pregnancies as a way to decrease abortions (they couldn't even bring themselves to support decreasinng abortions outright) is a very blatant attempt to appease what is left of its pro-life faction and hopefully peel off some evangelicals from the GOP. I would say the GOP position is much more genuine, especially in the face of political and legal realities. At practically every turn Repubs try to limit abortion, whether by limiting government money that goes to such or even proposing legislation to limit availability.

If Dems really were serious about "decreasing abortions," they would suggest real measures to do so. They love using the power of government in practically every other area of our lives to affect behavior, yet they are fully hands off in this one.