Civil liberties we are losing?

[NorCal Cat]

Exactly which civil liberties have been lost due to the Patriot Act, or other Bush Admin policies? I hear these liberals whining about this, yet I don't see how the Patriot Act or anything else has affected my civil liberties other than having to sign some extra forms when I get a mortgage or something similar.

[Tex]

The terrorists in Gitmo are not getting a quick and speedy trial, and that bothers some people.

[Archaea]

Both of you are not libertarians, not lawyers and not concerned about the processes used in administering justice. That's fine, and to you we may sound like histrionic women.

But examine the history of our civil liberties, reading up on them through the forties, fifties and sixties. These rights of process were fought long and hard to protect the innocent, not the guilty. It is simplistic, but it's true, we'd prefer a number of guilty get let off than one innocent be convicted improperly. That's the heart of the civil liberty debate, protecting innocence, and making government do its job.

If you or your loved ones ever end up on the wrong side of this debate, your perspective will change drastically.

The real world is much different that coding javascript.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

The terrorists in Gitmo are not getting a quick and speedy trial, and that bothers some people.

calling Gitmo's detainees as "terrorists" discloses you already did the job and closed the trial..ridiculously quick!

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Both of you are not libertarians, not lawyers and not concerned about the processes used in administering justice. That's fine, and to you we may sound like histrionic women.

But examine the history of our civil liberties, reading up on them through the forties, fifties and sixties. These rights of process were fought long and hard to protect the innocent, not the guilty. It is simplistic, but it's true, we'd prefer a number of guilty get let off than one innocent be convicted improperly. That's the heart of the civil liberty debate, protecting innocence, and making government do its job.

If you or your loved ones ever end up on the wrong side of this debate, your perspective will change drastically.

The real world is much different that coding javascript.

Ah, the old "I'm smarter than you, so trust me" argument, combined with a slight "we just care about the innocent, don't you?" line! I love it, Arch. You even spiced it up with a swipe at my profession. Very nice.

Maybe while you're reading up on your civil liberties history you could read a few pages about fallacious logical arguments as well.

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

calling Gitmo's detainees as "terrorists" discloses you already did the job and closed the trial..ridiculously quick!

To paraphrase a line off Cops: "All suspects are guilty! Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects, now would they!"

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Ah, the old "I'm smarter than you, so trust me" argument, combined with a slight "we just care about the innocent, don't you?" line! I love it, Arch. You even spiced it up with a swipe at my profession. Very nice.

Maybe while you're reading up on your civil liberties history you could read a few pages about fallacious logical arguments as well.



To paraphrase a line off Cops: "All suspects are guilty! Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects, now would they!"

Instead of swiping at me, address the argument. Are civil liberties not about making government prove its case and about protecting the innocent?

What is fallacious about that argument?

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

The terrorists in Gitmo are not getting a quick and speedy trial, and that bothers some people.

I think very few people who are concerned about the Patriot Act and the resulting loss in civil liberties are referring to the detainees in Gitmo. What concerns me is how the Patriot Act impacts American citizens, stateside, in their own homes.

As to NorCal's original question, I guess the whole habeas corpus thing was really just a minor benefit, not a civil libert. That's just one example.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I think very few people who are concerned about the Patriot Act and the resulting loss in civil liberties are referring to the detainees in Gitmo. What concerns me is how the Patriot Act impacts American citizens, stateside, in their own homes.

As to NorCal's original question, I guess the whole habeas corpus thing was really just a minor benefit, not a civil libert. That's just one example.

The habeas corpus issue, the issue concerning warrants, wiretaps, investigations into financial records, and many more issues, including the right to counsel, against self-incrimination. The unPatriot Act SUCKS.

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The habeas corpus issue, the issue concerning warrants, wiretaps, investigations into financial records, and many more issues, including the right to counsel, against self-incrimination. The unPatriot Act SUCKS.

Who is the habeas corpus issue affecting besides those being held at Gitmo?

As for the other issues you listed, I am not familiar with the details included in the Patriot Act. Can you give any details as to what is so unpatriotic about them?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

Ah, the old "I'm smarter than you, so trust me" argument, combined with a slight "we just care about the innocent, don't you?" line! I love it, Arch. You even spiced it up with a swipe at my profession. Very nice.

Maybe while you're reading up on your civil liberties history you could read a few pages about fallacious logical arguments as well.



To paraphrase a line off Cops: "All suspects are guilty! Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects, now would they!"

I didn't see him saying that he was smarter. He did say that our perspective is not the same as those who are currently behind bars without due process.