Creation/Lucifer questions.....

[fusnik11]

Who here believes Lucifer can tell the truth?

Do you subscribe to the idea that Lucifer tells nine truths in order to slip in the one falsehood?

If Satan told Adam to clothe himself why did Jehovah not tell Adam to remove the fig leaves?

Thanks....

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Who here believes Lucifer can tell the truth?

Do you subscribe to the idea that Lucifer tells nine truths in order to slip in the one falsehood?

If Satan told Adam to clothe himself why did Jehovah not tell Adam to remove the fig leaves?

Thanks....

1. yes
2. yes
3. sounds like you have a theory, let's hear it.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Who here believes Lucifer can tell the truth?

Do you subscribe to the idea that Lucifer tells nine truths in order to slip in the one falsehood?
Thanks....

Yes, I do.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Who here believes Lucifer can tell the truth?

Do you subscribe to the idea that Lucifer tells nine truths in order to slip in the one falsehood?

If Satan told Adam to clothe himself why did Jehovah not tell Adam to remove the fig leaves?

Thanks....

1. Can? I don't know. But since he is the "liar", it's instructive to examine everything he says as if it was a lie.

2. Don't know. However, maybe part of the brilliance of satan is that we would consider anything coming out the liar's mouth as true.

3. Don't know. However, it's possible that Jehovah knew is was a necessary step for Adam to thrash about in life under the illusions of the fig leaves, and so he lets him/us.

On a more general note, I think it's interesting to think of Lucifer as a principal (as opposed to mean guy with a goatee), who has momentarily taken residence in our minds and feeds us all kinds of lies, and constantly telling us we are naked and in need of some kind of clothing.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by Brian

On a more general note, I think it's interesting to think of Lucifer as a principal (as opposed to mean guy with a goatee), who has momentarily taken residence in our minds and feeds us all kinds of lies, and constantly telling us we are naked and in need of some kind of clothing.

Ironic that Satan would be teaching Adam & Eve to be modest.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

Ironic that Satan would be teaching Adam & Eve to be modest.

Indeed.

[Dan]

Sure he can, and I believe he does. But a true liar always has agendas for the truths he slips in. This is an area where I disagree with Skousen, who claimed he could not tell trust, ever.

The garden can be see on so many different parallels that the different aspects thereof can mean so many different things. Notice in the scriptures it is not Lucifer that tells them to don the fig leaves, but "elsewhere" it is lucifer.

Ultimately, I do not believe the intent of the word "nakedness" deals with nudity. It may from a purely historical standpoint, but the fall is so damn symbolic that it seems pretty overwhelming to me that the primary means of understanding the garden/fall is on symbolic levels.

On one level notice that Adam represents Christ and we (the church) represent Eve. Adam (Christ) was created specially by the Father and Eve (the church/us) were created from the rib of Adam (Christ). With the creation of all of us (man) were are propagated after our own "kind." The rib represents the side of man, close to the heart and on par as a equal. Just as Christ was created, the church was created as an help meet for him. The church is promised all blessings of joint heirship with Christ equally.

The church (Eve) is commanded to remain close to and at one with Christ (Adam). But notice when they are not in unison it is Eve (the church/each of us) who stumbles, not Adam (Christ). Further notice that when we partake of that which is forbidden we sin and fall. When we (Eve) fall, we force Christ (Adam) to fall so that we "may be." After partaking of that which is forbidden, we (Eve) is commanded no more as an equal, but to hearken directly to Christ (Adam) as Christ (Adam) hearkens to the father.

When Adam and Eve were in paradise, they froliced in the light and glory of God. They were "clothed" with God's love and glory. When they transgress (or any time we sin) we lose that glory and become naked. Anyone who has been close to the spirit and has lost it for a time knows the feeling of this sudden "nakedness."

So we do what Adam and Eve did (which on certain levels represent each of us) in that we attempt to cover our shame with our own craft through the things of the world (more lies, cover-up, denial and self justification, etc.) represented by the worldly color green and withering leaves. But on other levels green trees represent righteousness so you cannot make definitive conclusions as to absolute meaning at any one time. that is the beauty of parable.

Interestingly, when Adam and Eve discover their "nakedness" (or spiritual alientation from God) God attempts "to cover" them with symbolic coats of animal skin. "Atonement" means "to cover." Therefore, when man sins and becomes naked through loss of the spirit, God provides the way for loss of the nakedness through a covering, or rather the atonement.

Lucifer claimed that if they ate, they would not surely die. But I will call upon our hebrew scholars here and ask them to back me up in that the Hebrew for "you shall not surely die, but shall be as the Gods" is more appropriately translated as "in dying, ye shall not surely die, but you shall become as one of the Gods." Lucifer did not deny that they would die, but rather that it was a step to becoming more like God. But ultimately there are so many ways there things could be seen on different symbolic levels.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by Dan

Interestingly, when Adam and Eve discover their "nakedness" (or spiritual alientation from God) God attempts "to cover" them with symbolic coats of animal skin. "Atonement" means "to cover." Therefore, when man sins and becomes naked through loss of the spirit, God provides the way for loss of the nakedness through a covering, or rather the atonement.

I like this portion of the creation story. The Lord drapes Adam and Eve, aka us, with coats of skin. The coats of skin must be extracted from some living being. The underside of the coats, naturally would be covered with blood as their sacrifice becomes our 'cover.'

Paradoxically the skins also represent distance from our God. It segregates us from our maker. A question that arrises in my mind, can we shed these coats in this life to enter into the rest of the Lord? For practical applications for LDS, can one reach the point of renting the veil? Can you reach the point where the garment is no longer useful?

I don't know if Satan can tell the truth. Jesus teaches in John 8:

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If Satan cannot tell the truth, the implications are a lot different than the standard LDS point of view.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

I like this portion of the creation story. The Lord drapes Adam and Eve, aka us, with coats of skin. The coats of skin must be extracted from some living being. The underside of the coats, naturally would be covered with blood as their sacrifice becomes our 'cover.'

Paradoxically the skins also represent distance from our God. It segregates us from our maker. A question that arrises in my mind, can we shed these coats in this life to enter into the rest of the Lord? For practical applications for LDS, can one reach the point of renting the veil? Can you reach the point where the garment is no longer useful?

I don't know if Satan can tell the truth. Jesus teaches in John 8:

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If Satan cannot tell the truth, the implications are a lot different than the standard LDS point of view.

I find it extremely interesting how you can get so fully enveloped in the symbolism of Adam and Eve and coats of skins and so forth and then take an ultra-literal angle on a scripture about whether or not Satan can ever tell the truth.

[Dan]

Regarding shedding of garments in this life, it depends on how you view the symbolism. In one real sense the garment is a veil between God and man and would, therefore, seem to be a hinderance for full union. On the other hand, the veil ultimately symbolizes Jesus Christ, and there is not other way to full union with the father but through him (or through the veil). So ultimately if you shed the garment, it may be symbolically akin to casting aside the saviour. Interestingly, for those who receive their second temple annointings, the garment is a bit different, representative of deeper matters.