Was Joseph Smith a Martyr?

[non sequitur]

Suppose, hypothetically, that Warren Jeffs -- another fringe, religious zealot and self-proclaimed prophet, who became a fugitive and was ultimately incarcerated -- was killed in his jail cell tomorrow. By the definitions I'm hearing, it seems he would be no less a martyr than Joseph Smith.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Suppose, hypothetically, that Warren Jeffs -- another fringe, religious zealot and self-proclaimed prophet, who became a fugitive and was ultimately incarcerated -- was killed in his jail cell tomorrow. By the definitions I'm hearing, it seems he would no less a martyr than Joseph Smith.

The LDS in Illinois were no fringe group, but the largest or second largest city and starting to create significant political momentum. So your analogy fails.

Jeffs is a person without political power or ability. The same cannot be said of JS.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

This is like the question of whether the civil war was caused primarily by the slave question.

Do you mean in the sense that one has to surmise Joseph's motives, the mob's motives, and so on to establish the cause of his death?

That's certainly not all there is to the question, and the value of the question is not, I think, in finding some definitive answer. For me, the value is in discovering what other questions are evoked, and in seeing how Joseph's actions do or do not fit historical criteria for martyrdom, and what Mormon's often avow about his death.

Eusebius certainly didn't just throw up his hands and go, "There's no way to know their motivations or to know what caused their deaths, so the whole notion of martrydom is useless."

That's a cop out.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Suppose, hypothetically, that Warren Jeffs -- another fringe, religious zealot and self-proclaimed prophet, who became a fugitive and was ultimately incarcerated -- was killed in his jail cell tomorrow. By the definitions I'm hearing, it seems he would no less a martyr than Joseph Smith.

I have a hard time disagreeing with you. Of course we don't need to hypothesize, why not consider the question of whether David Koresh is a Martyr?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I agree, but the famous quote has lead people to other interpretations:

“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; But I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.” (B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1930], 2: 248 - 249.)

AS AA points out, I always thoguht this refernce was to the fact that he went to Carthage willingly, believing there he would be slaughtered. It does not mean at the point when the unjust murder was about to take place he lay quietly, but that before that time, and with it in his mind, perhaps in prophetic vision, he capitualted and willingly returned to Carthage. There was, I beleive, some in Nauvoo who were even willing to raise arms to protect him, and he could have escaped to at least postpone his incarceration, but instead he chose to submit. A lamb is led easily to the slaughter, but may kick a few times when the knife begins to cut.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by creekster

AS AA points out, I always thoguht this refernce was to the fact that he went to Carthage willingly, believing there he would be slaughtered. It does not mean at the point when the unjust murder was about to take place he lay quietly, but that before that time, and with it in his mind, perhaps in prophetic vision, he capitualted and willingly returned to Carthage. There was, I beleive, some in Nauvoo who were even willing to raise arms to protect him, and he could have escaped to at least postpone his incarceration, but instead he chose to submit. A lamb is led easily to the slaughter, but may kick a few times when the knife begins to cut.

He chose to submit to arrest, yes, but you know very well that you could drive a truck through the "perhaps in prophetic vision" bit.

And in what sense did he have lamb like innocence? Certainly not in the charges of destroying the press. As Indy and I agreed, he was innocent of anything that would justify his murder. But I won't assert that he was innocent in the same way Jesus was innocent, which is what Mormons sometimes seem to be implying (and you certainly may not be trying to imply this).

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

He chose to submit to arrest, yes, but you know very well that you could drive a truck through the "perhaps in prophetic vision" bit.

And in what sense did he have lamb like innocence? Certainly not in the charges of destroying the press. As Indy and I agreed, he was innocent of anything that would justify his murder. But I won't assert that he was innocent in the same way Jesus was innocent, which is what Mormons sometimes seem to be implying (and you certainly may not be trying to imply this).

I don't want to see him as completely innocent. I honestly do not understand the angst many suffer in regards to Joseph Smith and his life. He was a man like you and I … We are all good and wise, and foolish and carnal.

If there is no hope that a man like Joseph Smith could act as a prophet and accomplish great things, then what hope is there for you and I to serve faithfully in church callings and accomplish great things in our families and amongst a community of Saints?

I am certain he is a prophet. I am certain he was martyred because of his testimony.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

He chose to submit to arrest, yes, but you know very well that you could drive a truck through the "perhaps in prophetic vision" bit.

That's why I wrote perhaps. It is sort of my fancy about it, not anything that I know or would assert fully.

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

And in what sense did he have lamb like innocence? Certainly not in the charges of destroying the press. As Indy and I agreed, he was innocent of anything that would justify his murder. But I won't assert that he was innocent in the same way Jesus was innocent, which is what Mormons sometimes seem to be implying (and you certainly may not be trying to imply this).

I was actually arguing for a much more limited meaning to the phrase "like a lamb to the slaughter." He had apparnetly destroyed the press. He was not innocent in the way Jesus was, and it was (going back to your orignial quesiton) a martyrdom, not an atonement. I htink the "lamb to a slaughter" phrase may only really describe his demeanor upon his deciison to mount up and ride to Carthage, as opposed to the greater signifiacnce sometimes ascribed to it.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I have a hard time disagreeing with you. Of course we don't need to hypothesize, why not consider the question of whether David Koresh is a Martyr?

He's a martyr to the people that believed in him. That's my point. It's impossible to say conclusively whether someone was a martyr, because the label is all tied up into how esteemed the person was. Lots of people in the world think suicide bombers are martyrs.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I don't want to see him as completely innocent. I honestly do not understand the angst many suffer in regards to Joseph Smith and his life. He was a man like you and I … We are all good and wise, and foolish and carnal.

If there is no hope that a man like Joseph Smith could act as a prophet and accomplish great things, then what hope is there for you and I to serve faithfully in church callings and accomplish great things in our families and amongst a community of Saints?

I am certain he is a prophet. I am certain he was martyred because of his testimony.

I, too, find solace in Joseph's shortcomings. As to why he was martyred, I have trouble picturing the mob going, "You know what, that guy believes in Jesus so let's kill him!" They weren't out to murder everyone who believed in Jesus. But that WAS the case for Christians under Nero, Domitian, and so on.

Isn't it at least as plausible that they thought, "Let's kill the guy who started Mormonism so we can put an end to the whole thing?" Isn't it plausible that they killed him because of sectarian beliefs? There could be an important distinction in that as regarding the notion of martyr. Of course, a faithful Mormon will see much that is Mormonism as a result of Joseph's belief in Jesus, but it does not necessarily follow that that's why Joseph was killed, even if it contributed to his resolve to submit to arrest.