Brian and Fus's theory on God commanding Adam and Eve not to judge - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

jay santos · 08-15-2006, 04:59 PM

It's an interesting theory. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. And the reason is that once they partake, they will begin judging things which they have no business judging.

First, you can't mess with the standard Sunday school answer that the primary issue here with the commandment and the partaking of the fruit was in bringing about awareness/mortality/the ability to procreate, etc. which is a foundation of Mormon doctrine.

But I like Brian's take on looking for depth in simple teachings and parables, so I'll go along with it.

So "don't partake of the fruit" = "don't judge". I like the concept of not judging others. It's a big problem in our society and in Mormon culture. It was a big deal for Jesus with the Pharisees. I agree we shouldn't judge.

Then you get into the crappy answer a lot of Mormons give you where Joseph Smith added the phrase "unrighteously" the the scripture so that it reads don't judge unrighteously instead of don't judge period. I wish Joseph wouldn't have done that because it gives you an immediate cop-out. So I can trash on you if I want, as long as my judgements are made righteously, which I can assure you there are.

Then you get into the business of day to day judgements/discernments. Those certainly fall into a different category. If my creepy, single neighbor keeps inviting my children to his house or asks to take them places, it's perfectly fine for me to think through the possible outcomes and say NO. That doesn't mean I treat him like a jerk or put up a big sign that says "CHILD MOLESTER LIVES NEXT DOOR". I make judgements on whether I should do or allow something, but I shouldn't condemn other people in my head.

Now comes the huge step that comes from God asks us not to judge which Fus makes but not sure if Brian makes or not. That is to add the "don't judge" thing with "God says man is perfect", and then to say nothing man has an inclination to is ever wrong or sinful.

If you were a non-Mormon and brought up that question, it might make for an interesting discussion. If you are a Mormon, then it's just absurd. The concept of sin has been so clearly taught by every prophet and currently today that there's no room for misinterpretation.

I was born with inclination to be gay. Too bad, it's a sin. I was born with inclination to put my fist through my co-worker's face. Too bad, it's a sin. I was born with inclination to shoplift that IPOD I'm coveting. Too bad, it's a sin.

And for SU and non-seq, yes I do need God/revelation/religion to help me out at times on what is right and wrong.

fusnik11 · 08-15-2006, 05:41 PM

Moses 2:

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

31 And I, God, saw everything that I had made, and, behold, all things which I had made were very good; and the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Man/woman were created in the image and likeness of God. Generally we interpret that to mean that God has a nose, and has eyes, and hands, and feet, and legs, because we have those things, but what does his likeness mean?

God is perfect, everywhere, all knowing, powerful, loving, kind, generous, etc, and since we were created in his likeness, in his mold, we now have the abilities to be like God, to harnass the power given to us in this probation.

Interestingly enough God reiterates this point by saying that he beheld all things which he made and deemed them good. In other words, he saw that man was made perfect, and was ok with the perfect creation.

So what happens, to maintain perfection God requests two things, multiply and to not partake of the fruit of the tree that bestows knowledge of good and evil.

Now is this tree a tree with mystical powers? Or is the fruit representitve of the fruits of our judgements that pushes us away from God's presence? The tree represents knowledge of what is good and bad, why would God not want us to partake of it? Could it be because we are perfect as is and need not worry what is 'good' and what is 'evil?'

Christ consistently taught to not judge, lest ye be judged, to be as a child, meek, humble, and dare I say nonjudgemental.

jay santos · 08-15-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Moses 2:

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

31 And I, God, saw everything that I had made, and, behold, all things which I had made were very good; and the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Man/woman were created in the image and likeness of God. Generally we interpret that to mean that God has a nose, and has eyes, and hands, and feet, and legs, because we have those things, but what does his likeness mean?

God is perfect, everywhere, all knowing, powerful, loving, kind, generous, etc, and since we were created in his likeness, in his mold, we now have the abilities to be like God, to harnass the power given to us in this probation.

Interestingly enough God reiterates this point by saying that he beheld all things which he made and deemed them good. In other words, he saw that man was made perfect, and was ok with the perfect creation.

So what happens, to maintain perfection God requests two things, multiply and to not partake of the fruit of the tree that bestows knowledge of good and evil.

Now is this tree a tree with mystical powers? Or is the fruit representitve of the fruits of our judgements that pushes us away from God's presence? The tree represents knowledge of what is good and bad, why would God not want us to partake of it? Could it be because we are perfect as is and need not worry what is 'good' and what is 'evil?'

Christ consistently taught to not judge, lest ye be judged, to be as a child, meek, humble, and dare I say nonjudgemental.

I guess I really shouldn't care what you believe, but it does fascinate me because you say you believe Mormon doctrine yet what you write seems so foreign to me.

Just a basic question, not leading or manipulative--I just want to know where you're coming from.

You seem to be saying that man is perfect and can do no wrong. Do you believe in sin--in the notion that sin is something that man might do that is wrong and that seperates us from God and makes us unworthy? Also do you believe that men might be born with a predisposition that makes them likely to commit said sin.

Indy Coug · 08-15-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Moses 2:

26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

31 And I, God, saw everything that I had made, and, behold, all things which I had made were very good; and the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Man/woman were created in the image and likeness of God. Generally we interpret that to mean that God has a nose, and has eyes, and hands, and feet, and legs, because we have those things, but what does his likeness mean?

God is perfect, everywhere, all knowing, powerful, loving, kind, generous, etc, and since we were created in his likeness, in his mold, we now have the abilities to be like God, to harnass the power given to us in this probation.

Interestingly enough God reiterates this point by saying that he beheld all things which he made and deemed them good. In other words, he saw that man was made perfect, and was ok with the perfect creation.

So what happens, to maintain perfection God requests two things, multiply and to not partake of the fruit of the tree that bestows knowledge of good and evil.

Now is this tree a tree with mystical powers? Or is the fruit representitve of the fruits of our judgements that pushes us away from God's presence? The tree represents knowledge of what is good and bad, why would God not want us to partake of it? Could it be because we are perfect as is and need not worry what is 'good' and what is 'evil?'

Christ consistently taught to not judge, lest ye be judged, to be as a child, meek, humble, and dare I say nonjudgemental.

In my judgement, you don't seem to understand what Christ is teaching regarding judgement.

Archaea · 08-15-2006, 06:35 PM

what is odd about fus's interpretation are the huge leaps in logic he's willing to make.

As a part-time linguist, I take issue with his concept of "perfection" which is at odds with the linguistical development behind the texts. In other words, Fus plays fast and loose with the textual fabric, bending it to some modern view of the cosmos, that we shouldn't be judgmental or something sixtiish.

The Genesis text stands for so much more and really has no reason to be interpreted that a, we are perfect because we are NOT, and b, don't be judgmental.

If that's what fuz takes from that text, then he missed the point entirely.

fusnik11 · 08-15-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

If that's what fuz takes from that text, then he missed the point entirely.

Have we not discussed 'perfection' enough here? You take issue with the word of God, not with me.

God said it was 'very good,' God said that he created man/woman in his likeness, it's now to you to explain that God isn't saying man is whole, complete, perfect as is, it's not on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

In my judgement, you don't seem to understand what Christ is teaching regarding judgement..

So what is Jesus teaching us? I am open for learning opportunities.

My interpretation reads like this:

a. God says man is complete, whole, perfect
b. God says man is in his likeness, in other words: perfect, all knowing, etc
c. God says don't take of the free of knowledge - I interpret he is telling us not to judge items that are good as is. God already made the judgement when he endorsed our creation, it's not our jobs to judge an already judged, perfected, whole entity.
d. Jesus comes because man can't help himself and starts judging, tells us three things, be perfect, love God, love your neighbor - I interpret this as another commission not to judge, simply to love all

So not it is our duty to:

Be perfect, complete, whole and we obtain this by avoiding judgements and loving God and neighbor.

Are there evil things in this world? Yes there are, are we told to still love this person? Yes we are.

Indy Coug · 08-15-2006, 07:05 PM

You've completely missed the boat on why God told them not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He purposefully set up a situation whereby they had to transgress in order to become fallen, understand good from evil (in other words, LEARN HOW TO JUDGE and then act accordingly), live by faith (Abraham 3), multiply and replenish the earth and so forth. These are the very things we needed to do and experience in order to be come like God, as we all signed off on it in the pre-mortal existence. We weren't going to get anywhere with Adam and Eve leaving the tree alone because God didn't want them judging.

If we don't exercise judgement, we simply will not be able to become more like God; we will be tossed to and fro by the various winds of doctrine/philosophy.

If I read stuff from Robin Finderson, you, Seattle Ute, Archaea, Gordon B. Hinckley, Mormon, etc. how do I know what I should do in the absence of exercising judgement?

SteelBlue · 08-15-2006, 07:07 PM

Fus. How much, if any, of your theory comes from Skousen's temple book? I know he came to the conclusion that it was not possible to sin.

Indy Coug · 08-15-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Fus. How much, if any, of your theory comes from Skousen's temple book? I know he came to the conclusion that it was not possible to sin.

If it's impossible to sin, why did we need an infinte and eternal atonement?

SteelBlue · 08-15-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If it's impossible to sin, why did we need an infinte and eternal atonement?

Why are you asking me? It isn't my theory. I find no truth in it. I just recognize the "theory" from a conversation I had with somebody about a book.

08-15-2006, 04:59 PM	#1
jay santos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,177	Brian and Fus's theory on God commanding Adam and Eve not to judge It's an interesting theory. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. And the reason is that once they partake, they will begin judging things which they have no business judging. First, you can't mess with the standard Sunday school answer that the primary issue here with the commandment and the partaking of the fruit was in bringing about awareness/mortality/the ability to procreate, etc. which is a foundation of Mormon doctrine. But I like Brian's take on looking for depth in simple teachings and parables, so I'll go along with it. So "don't partake of the fruit" = "don't judge". I like the concept of not judging others. It's a big problem in our society and in Mormon culture. It was a big deal for Jesus with the Pharisees. I agree we shouldn't judge. Then you get into the crappy answer a lot of Mormons give you where Joseph Smith added the phrase "unrighteously" the the scripture so that it reads don't judge unrighteously instead of don't judge period. I wish Joseph wouldn't have done that because it gives you an immediate cop-out. So I can trash on you if I want, as long as my judgements are made righteously, which I can assure you there are. Then you get into the business of day to day judgements/discernments. Those certainly fall into a different category. If my creepy, single neighbor keeps inviting my children to his house or asks to take them places, it's perfectly fine for me to think through the possible outcomes and say NO. That doesn't mean I treat him like a jerk or put up a big sign that says "CHILD MOLESTER LIVES NEXT DOOR". I make judgements on whether I should do or allow something, but I shouldn't condemn other people in my head. Now comes the huge step that comes from God asks us not to judge which Fus makes but not sure if Brian makes or not. That is to add the "don't judge" thing with "God says man is perfect", and then to say nothing man has an inclination to is ever wrong or sinful. If you were a non-Mormon and brought up that question, it might make for an interesting discussion. If you are a Mormon, then it's just absurd. The concept of sin has been so clearly taught by every prophet and currently today that there's no room for misinterpretation. I was born with inclination to be gay. Too bad, it's a sin. I was born with inclination to put my fist through my co-worker's face. Too bad, it's a sin. I was born with inclination to shoplift that IPOD I'm coveting. Too bad, it's a sin. And for SU and non-seq, yes I do need God/revelation/religion to help me out at times on what is right and wrong.

08-15-2006, 06:35 PM	#5
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	what is odd about fus's interpretation are the huge leaps in logic he's willing to make. As a part-time linguist, I take issue with his concept of "perfection" which is at odds with the linguistical development behind the texts. In other words, Fus plays fast and loose with the textual fabric, bending it to some modern view of the cosmos, that we shouldn't be judgmental or something sixtiish. The Genesis text stands for so much more and really has no reason to be interpreted that a, we are perfect because we are NOT, and b, don't be judgmental. If that's what fuz takes from that text, then he missed the point entirely. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

08-15-2006, 05:41 PM	#2
fusnik11 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,506	Moses 2: 26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. 31 And I, God, saw everything that I had made, and, behold, all things which I had made were very good; and the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Man/woman were created in the image and likeness of God. Generally we interpret that to mean that God has a nose, and has eyes, and hands, and feet, and legs, because we have those things, but what does his likeness mean? God is perfect, everywhere, all knowing, powerful, loving, kind, generous, etc, and since we were created in his likeness, in his mold, we now have the abilities to be like God, to harnass the power given to us in this probation. Interestingly enough God reiterates this point by saying that he beheld all things which he made and deemed them good. In other words, he saw that man was made perfect, and was ok with the perfect creation. So what happens, to maintain perfection God requests two things, multiply and to not partake of the fruit of the tree that bestows knowledge of good and evil. Now is this tree a tree with mystical powers? Or is the fruit representitve of the fruits of our judgements that pushes us away from God's presence? The tree represents knowledge of what is good and bad, why would God not want us to partake of it? Could it be because we are perfect as is and need not worry what is 'good' and what is 'evil?' Christ consistently taught to not judge, lest ye be judged, to be as a child, meek, humble, and dare I say nonjudgemental.

08-15-2006, 07:05 PM	#7
Indy Coug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Between Iraq and a hard place Posts: 7,569	You've completely missed the boat on why God told them not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He purposefully set up a situation whereby they had to transgress in order to become fallen, understand good from evil (in other words, LEARN HOW TO JUDGE and then act accordingly), live by faith (Abraham 3), multiply and replenish the earth and so forth. These are the very things we needed to do and experience in order to be come like God, as we all signed off on it in the pre-mortal existence. We weren't going to get anywhere with Adam and Eve leaving the tree alone because God didn't want them judging. If we don't exercise judgement, we simply will not be able to become more like God; we will be tossed to and fro by the various winds of doctrine/philosophy. If I read stuff from Robin Finderson, you, Seattle Ute, Archaea, Gordon B. Hinckley, Mormon, etc. how do I know what I should do in the absence of exercising judgement?

08-15-2006, 07:07 PM	#8
SteelBlue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norcal Posts: 5,821	Fus. How much, if any, of your theory comes from Skousen's temple book? I know he came to the conclusion that it was not possible to sin.