On Utah's dynasty - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Goatnapper'96 · 02-02-2007, 05:10 PM

I believe Utah has a very solid historical hoops program. It is laughable to believe it is a top 15 program, in my opinion at least. But it is a very solid regional program with occasional runs of regional dominance. Majerus' run was almost as impressive as Lavell's, just not as long.

I believe that Utah can have a good program and perhaps the best one in the MWC if they get a good coach. They have resources and a national reputation. However, I think UNLV beat them to the punch for that good coach. Perhaps the U can find another and compete with the Rebels. In the end what I believe gives UNLV a better chance to stay regionally dominant is a better natural recruiting base. A solid UNLV program will get the best kids from Vegas, and I think that will provide more good hoopsters than the die hard Ute kids (both LDS Utes and non-LDS kids) from Utah.

However, things change with BCS money that impacts hoops. The lack of exposure with the mtn and the mediocrity to flat out bad play for 5-6 years, save the Bogut year to the sweet 16 will be difficult to reverse. UNLV is facing a similar challenge. I am not convinced that the circumstances during Jack Gardner are the same as now and it will be important for the new coach to recognize that and find a new niche.

The fall to this year, while sudden over the past two years, has been building for some time. Similar to BYU football dominance starting to wane in the 90's, Utah hoops has not been a dominant program since Andre Miller graduated. I agree that Rick had his issues towards the end and I also agree that Giacolletti is not a great coach. I think Giac, similar to Crowton is almost as much a victim of circumstance as he is being a poor HC. Similar to Crowton he needs to go because there is power in change. He might be a better HC than he is showing, but the probability that he is good is not very high and the net benefits of a change in leadership outweigh the negative ramifications of turnover. I am not convinced that the Utah job is as attractive as Ute fans make it out to be. UNLV is solid and I am beginning to believe BYU is going to be more competitive than Cleveland could make them. I still think maintaining AF as competitive is near to impossible. I just don't see Utah as having immense advantages that make dominating in the MWC so easy. Historically, haven't most Utah good HCs been relatively unknown before getting to Utah? I don't think the names Ute fans have been throwing out will come to Utah. But Hill has found diamonds in the rough before and perhaps he could again.

Finally, the concept of dynasty is somewhat humorous to me from one perspective. While I admit that Utah has a better historical hoops program the net Ute lead in the head to head matchup indicate more parity than the programs realize. Historically, Utah does not have a head to head dynastical advantage over BYU. In fact, I believe that the recent domination, from BYU ending the long Ute streak in the MWC tourney in 2000 until last years MWC tourney win, is really strange because I believe of the 6 years in question (2000-2001 through 2005-2006) BYU actually had a better team 4 of those years. Despite this, the record over that period was 10-4 for Utah.

In other words, going forward Utah will improve and be competitive with BYU and perhaps have more years with NCAA appearances and or wins, but if Ute fans think what they will see the sweet 16 more frequently than perhaps once a decade, I think they are missing reality. The Ute future is probably similar to what Big Rick brought the last 4 years he was the Ute HC.

SeattleUte · 02-02-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I believe Utah has a very solid historical hoops program. It is laughable to believe it is a top 15 program, in my opinion at least.

Opinioins are like assholes....

Goatnapper'96 · 02-02-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Opinioins are like assholes....

I have never thought of you as an opinion. However, I gotta think a legitimate top 15 program could attract a better HC than Ray Giacolleti.

SeattleUte · 02-02-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I have never thought of you as an opinion. However, I gotta think a legitimate top 15 program could attract a better HC than Ray Giacolleti.

Our biggest problem is the state of Utah and people's association of us with our chief rival. We have succeeded despite that stigma. And we only get 40% of the great Mormon athletes.

Goatnapper'96 · 02-02-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Our biggest problem is the state of Utah and people's association of us with our chief rival. We have succeeded despite that stigma. And we only get 40% of the great Mormon athletes.

You have succeeded because you had some great head coaches. Utah is an interesting program because of how much it relies upon diamonds in the rough that other programs miss. It is amazing the success and amount of good players the Utes have enjoyed.

Perhaps circumstances have changed and Utah's future is a pleasent hoops memory.

il Padrino Ute · 02-02-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

You have succeeded because you had some great head coaches. Utah is an interesting program because of how much it relies upon diamonds in the rough that other programs miss. It is amazing the success and amount of good players the Utes have enjoyed.

Perhaps circumstances have changed and Utah's future is a pleasent hoops memory.

Agreed about diamonds in the rough. Majerus was probably better than anyone at spotting them. That's what also hurt Utah in basketball, as Majerus was so convinced that he could continue to have the same kind of success with the overlooked kid. He ignored a few kids that went on to other programs (Luke Ridnaur for example) and had he not been so full of himself, Utah could have maintained the level it was at during that great 5 year stretch.

I agree that Giac's biggest obstacle was following Majerus, though I don't think he would have been a good coach no matter who he followed at Utah. His teams have gotten progressively worse. He needs to go if not for any reason other than a fresh start for Utah.

I also wanted to point out that you are correct about parity in the league. Utah has slipped and the other teams have become better. No more will the be a single team to carry the league in basketball and IMO, that is a good thing. It will push all teams to get better and the league will only be stronger for it.

MikeWaters · 02-02-2007, 07:16 PM

Utah is tied with TCU in the conference, and TCU has an overall better record.

Utah is really one of the worst teams in the conference, if not the country.

Detroitdad · 02-02-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Utah is tied with TCU in the conference, and TCU has an overall better record.

Utah is really one of the worst teams in the conference, if not the country.

And there is no excuse for this being the case. They have some pretty good players on that team, far too many to justify all the losses.

ute4ever · 02-02-2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

...if not the country.

Oh come on now, Utah is in the 48th percentile of the RPI, at 160/336.

And to those who cry that Giac is turning Utah into Eastern Washington, need to note that EW is down at 215, in the 64th percentile.

He'll need another full season to get Utah that low.

Damn, our gymnasts are hot.

Archaea · 02-02-2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Oh come on now, Utah is in the 48th percentile of the RPI, at 160/336.

And to those who cry that Giac is turning Utah into Eastern Washington, need to note that EW is down at 215, in the 64th percentile.

He'll need another full season to get Utah that low.

Damn, our gymnasts are hot.

In terms of defending the three point shot, where does Utah rank?

I was worried Giac was turning things around after the AFA win, but the SDSU loss overcame my worries.

How did Utah defeat WSU, Virginia and AFA, but lose to Albany?

02-02-2007, 05:10 PM	#1
Goatnapper'96 Recruiting Coordinator/Bosom Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,412	On Utah's dynasty I believe Utah has a very solid historical hoops program. It is laughable to believe it is a top 15 program, in my opinion at least. But it is a very solid regional program with occasional runs of regional dominance. Majerus' run was almost as impressive as Lavell's, just not as long. I believe that Utah can have a good program and perhaps the best one in the MWC if they get a good coach. They have resources and a national reputation. However, I think UNLV beat them to the punch for that good coach. Perhaps the U can find another and compete with the Rebels. In the end what I believe gives UNLV a better chance to stay regionally dominant is a better natural recruiting base. A solid UNLV program will get the best kids from Vegas, and I think that will provide more good hoopsters than the die hard Ute kids (both LDS Utes and non-LDS kids) from Utah. However, things change with BCS money that impacts hoops. The lack of exposure with the mtn and the mediocrity to flat out bad play for 5-6 years, save the Bogut year to the sweet 16 will be difficult to reverse. UNLV is facing a similar challenge. I am not convinced that the circumstances during Jack Gardner are the same as now and it will be important for the new coach to recognize that and find a new niche. The fall to this year, while sudden over the past two years, has been building for some time. Similar to BYU football dominance starting to wane in the 90's, Utah hoops has not been a dominant program since Andre Miller graduated. I agree that Rick had his issues towards the end and I also agree that Giacolletti is not a great coach. I think Giac, similar to Crowton is almost as much a victim of circumstance as he is being a poor HC. Similar to Crowton he needs to go because there is power in change. He might be a better HC than he is showing, but the probability that he is good is not very high and the net benefits of a change in leadership outweigh the negative ramifications of turnover. I am not convinced that the Utah job is as attractive as Ute fans make it out to be. UNLV is solid and I am beginning to believe BYU is going to be more competitive than Cleveland could make them. I still think maintaining AF as competitive is near to impossible. I just don't see Utah as having immense advantages that make dominating in the MWC so easy. Historically, haven't most Utah good HCs been relatively unknown before getting to Utah? I don't think the names Ute fans have been throwing out will come to Utah. But Hill has found diamonds in the rough before and perhaps he could again. Finally, the concept of dynasty is somewhat humorous to me from one perspective. While I admit that Utah has a better historical hoops program the net Ute lead in the head to head matchup indicate more parity than the programs realize. Historically, Utah does not have a head to head dynastical advantage over BYU. In fact, I believe that the recent domination, from BYU ending the long Ute streak in the MWC tourney in 2000 until last years MWC tourney win, is really strange because I believe of the 6 years in question (2000-2001 through 2005-2006) BYU actually had a better team 4 of those years. Despite this, the record over that period was 10-4 for Utah. In other words, going forward Utah will improve and be competitive with BYU and perhaps have more years with NCAA appearances and or wins, but if Ute fans think what they will see the sweet 16 more frequently than perhaps once a decade, I think they are missing reality. The Ute future is probably similar to what Big Rick brought the last 4 years he was the Ute HC. __________________ She had a psychiatrist who said because I didn't trust the water system, the school system, the government, I was paranoid," he said. "I had a psychiatrist who said her psychiatrist was stupid."

02-02-2007, 07:16 PM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Utah is tied with TCU in the conference, and TCU has an overall better record. Utah is really one of the worst teams in the conference, if not the country.