do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized? - Page 11 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Sleeping in EQ · 07-23-2008, 08:07 PM

I see plenty of talking past one another in this thread. Piaget and Kohlberg establish (and for me, quite convincingly), that an eight-year-old has a quite limited moral sense. I don't see anyone arguing that they don't have an awareness of basic gospel concepts, or that they don't in some sense value being nice to others, or value family tradition.

Kohlberg is talking about moral reasoning. Some would reduce this notion to being able to distinguish "good from evil," with good amounting to knowing to say "sorry," and to follow parents. Kohlberg posits a continuim from such simple understandings to appreciating the values and places of institutions in a society, the ability to comprehend and value cultural difference, the ability to comprehend the social significance of a cultural practice (such as baptism), abstract moral reasoning of absolute and subjective values and their consequences, parsing of the consistencies and contradictions in any hierarchy of principles, and so on.

A typical 11-year-old will have a better sense of such notions than will a typical eight year old, and even if neither could put them in the language that I have here.

This doesn't mean I'm arguing that eight-year-olds shouldn't be baptized (I'm not), it just means that if moral decision making is the criterion, eight-year-old's don't have much of it and there is a significant increase of ability when teenagers are evaluated on these terms.

ERCougar · 07-23-2008, 08:12 PM

As a parent of a 7 year old, I have to weigh in...
I'm not sure how "informed" his decision his. Or how "inform" him for that matter. I could take him on a tour of different religions for the next year. I could offer him the choice to not get baptized (legitimately--we certainly wouldn't disown him and I haven't put any pressure on him to be baptized). But I still suspect he would choose our church and choose to be baptized. If I didn't allow him to be baptized until he were older, he'd be mad.
So yeah, he's making a choice. But probably not an informed one.

Question is, do we ever make "informed" covenants in the church? Do you really think you know what you're committing to when you're 19 and go through the temple? I always find it a little funny that we treat the 24 yo male who messes up differently than the 24 yo female just because he's gone through the temple--as if following the lifelong program that's been laid out for him was some conscious choice to make a covenant with God. In most cases, it would actually take a much more conscious choice to NOT go through the temple; most of us could sleepwalk through everything we're expected to do.

This isn't unique to 8 yo's or 19 yo's. I'm still not sure I fully comprehend my baptismal covenants, let alone my temple covenants. I'm fairly certain that God holds me accountable to the extent of my understanding. The same applies to the 8 yo. Some kids will have a much better understanding of the covenant they're "choosing" to make; some kids not so much. So we follow the custom to keep some order in the church, and let God sort out how valid their choice and covenant are.

EDIT: By the way, this isn't a criticism of the church. I think this is an aspect of faith. You act based on your limited understanding and your understanding increases--a "stepping into the darkness" kind of thing.

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 08:15 PM

Yeah, don't get me started about how the church prepares its members for temple convenants.

ERCougar · 07-23-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yeah, don't get me started about how the church prepares its members for temple convenants.

You mean that you don't find the "We can't tell you anything that's going to happen in the temple except that you'll make certain covenants that are really important. But don't worry, we'll give you the chance to stand up in the middle of your first session in front of everyone and say no, thus embarrassing yourself and your family members or friends who came to see you go through the first time...." approach adequate?

ute4ever · 07-23-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Couldn't help noticing this: "he that believeth not shall be damned." Yikes.

Being damned has been explained by modern prophets to mean the person's progression stops. i.e. "If you partake of the sacrament unworthily, you will be damned" means that if the person has been living unworthily, yet thinks he can take the sacrament for the audience and all will be well, he is wrong. His progression has stopped because he needs to change his ways. (Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law).

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERCougar

You mean that you don't find the "We can't tell you anything that's going to happen in the temple except that you'll make certain covenants that are really important. But don't worry, we'll give you the chance to stand up in the middle of your first session in front of everyone and say no, thus embarrassing yourself and your family members or friends who came to see you go through the first time...." approach adequate?

LOL. Exactly. Don't forget the surprise/shock that you are not wearing just a white shirt and pants and everyone is acting like it is a normal thing.

ERCougar · 07-23-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

LOL. Exactly. Don't forget the surprise/shock that you are not wearing just a white shirt and pants and everyone is acting like it is a normal thing.

LOL...After everything I had heard about the temple, I was relieved I was wearing clothes at all...

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERCougar

LOL...After everything I had heard about the temple, I was relieved I was wearing clothes at all...

You must have blocked out some of it. Because there was a part where I became very anxious.

All-American · 07-23-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You must have blocked out some of it. Because there was a part where I became very anxious.

Its been a while since I've done initiatory, but I understand that they've made some changes for the sake of modesty and comfort. Anybody able to report on this?

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

Its been a while since I've done initiatory, but I understand that they've made some changes for the sake of modesty and comfort. Anybody able to report on this?

Lame. They are always watering things down to make it easier for the next generation.

07-23-2008, 08:07 PM	#101
Sleeping in EQ Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The People's Republic of Monsanto Posts: 3,085	I see plenty of talking past one another in this thread. Piaget and Kohlberg establish (and for me, quite convincingly), that an eight-year-old has a quite limited moral sense. I don't see anyone arguing that they don't have an awareness of basic gospel concepts, or that they don't in some sense value being nice to others, or value family tradition. Kohlberg is talking about moral reasoning. Some would reduce this notion to being able to distinguish "good from evil," with good amounting to knowing to say "sorry," and to follow parents. Kohlberg posits a continuim from such simple understandings to appreciating the values and places of institutions in a society, the ability to comprehend and value cultural difference, the ability to comprehend the social significance of a cultural practice (such as baptism), abstract moral reasoning of absolute and subjective values and their consequences, parsing of the consistencies and contradictions in any hierarchy of principles, and so on. A typical 11-year-old will have a better sense of such notions than will a typical eight year old, and even if neither could put them in the language that I have here. This doesn't mean I'm arguing that eight-year-olds shouldn't be baptized (I'm not), it just means that if moral decision making is the criterion, eight-year-old's don't have much of it and there is a significant increase of ability when teenagers are evaluated on these terms. __________________ "Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

07-23-2008, 08:12 PM	#102
ERCougar Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,589	As a parent of a 7 year old, I have to weigh in... I'm not sure how "informed" his decision his. Or how "inform" him for that matter. I could take him on a tour of different religions for the next year. I could offer him the choice to not get baptized (legitimately--we certainly wouldn't disown him and I haven't put any pressure on him to be baptized). But I still suspect he would choose our church and choose to be baptized. If I didn't allow him to be baptized until he were older, he'd be mad. So yeah, he's making a choice. But probably not an informed one. Question is, do we ever make "informed" covenants in the church? Do you really think you know what you're committing to when you're 19 and go through the temple? I always find it a little funny that we treat the 24 yo male who messes up differently than the 24 yo female just because he's gone through the temple--as if following the lifelong program that's been laid out for him was some conscious choice to make a covenant with God. In most cases, it would actually take a much more conscious choice to NOT go through the temple; most of us could sleepwalk through everything we're expected to do. This isn't unique to 8 yo's or 19 yo's. I'm still not sure I fully comprehend my baptismal covenants, let alone my temple covenants. I'm fairly certain that God holds me accountable to the extent of my understanding. The same applies to the 8 yo. Some kids will have a much better understanding of the covenant they're "choosing" to make; some kids not so much. So we follow the custom to keep some order in the church, and let God sort out how valid their choice and covenant are. EDIT: By the way, this isn't a criticism of the church. I think this is an aspect of faith. You act based on your limited understanding and your understanding increases--a "stepping into the darkness" kind of thing. Last edited by ERCougar; 07-23-2008 at 08:27 PM.

07-23-2008, 08:15 PM	#103
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Yeah, don't get me started about how the church prepares its members for temple convenants.