Hand Over Heart

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Solon

Obviously.

But I was wondering if other people think this is a big deal. You say it can be a big deal - sure; otherwise, CNN.com would have nothing to write about. But is it a big deal to individuals? Do you (or anyone else) care personally?

Should it be a big deal? No.

Might it be a symbolic deal and therefore be an issue tipping things against a candidate? Of course.

However, it is important for an elected representative to be respectful of our history and of symbols. It would be wise to pay respect to those symbols in a manner that tradition and the public expect.

Here's how I look at it. Will people be offended if it doesn't accord with tradition? If yes, then don't offend.

Will people offended if I place my hand over the heart? Probably not.

So what do pragmatics dictate?

Of course, if one is aware of that and intending to offend, then don't take offense at receiving the expected and desired response.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

Obviously.

But I was wondering if other people think this is a big deal. You say it can be a big deal - sure; otherwise, CNN.com would have nothing to write about. But is it a big deal to individuals? Do you (or anyone else) care personally if a candidate for president doesn't do it?

As I said, I wouldn't base my judge solely on that reason, but it would draw doubt in my mind if the man truly understands the office.

Originally Posted by woot

If it said something like "I pledge allegiance to the values of the United States, as long as they are not corrupted by our politicians..." then maybe, but even then those values would have to be enumerated.

woot's modified Pledge:

I pledge allegiance to a few of the values--the one's I agree with anyway--of the United States of America, and not to that dumb flag which represents it (because it's just a stupid piece of cloth) or to the Republic for which it stands 'cause they've done a lot of crap over the years like slavery and New Coke, one nation, under God unless you don't believe in him, indivisible except when Bush is president (he didn't really win anyway), with liberty and justice for all.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

with liberty and justice for

Those that have the money to afford it.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by woot

Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Even if you assume that the flag represents the nation, which I find quite silly, and which isn't necessarily supported in the text, since "and to the republic for which it stands" is mentioned separately, pledging allegiance to the nation doesn't sit well with me.

If it said something like "I pledge allegiance to the values of the United States, as long as they are not corrupted by our politicians..." then maybe, but even then those values would have to be enumerated.

I'm not a fan of the word "fascist," as it gets tossed around so much, but the forced recitation of a brainless nationalistic oath seems to fit the definition. Luckily, the laws concerning its recitation are no longer enforced, but the idea is the same.

If the flag isn't a symbol of the nation than what exactly do you think it does symbolize...or is this where you revert back to the piece of fabric bit?

So in essence you have a problem with a commitment of loyalty to your country, because you disagree with some of the politics?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Solon

On the surface, I don't think it differs all that much from fascist salutes from the early 20th century. There used to be an Olympic salute that athletes would do when they won in the modern games. In 1936, Jesse Owens didn't know what to do because the Olympic salute was the same as the Nazi salute. So, he gave an awkward military salute instead.

http://www.grizedale.org/2007/03/17/...02-293x400.jpg

I think the salute (and, consequently for me, putting hand over heart) is just one more thing that the Nazis screwed up for everyone (like the swastika).

I'm a patriotic person; I've served my country. I just don't like physical salute (for civilians), as if a gesture somehow conveys additional nationalistic devotion. I have no problem if others do it, but I haven't done it for several years. I stand for the national anthem. I'll say the pledge of allegiance. But I leave my hands at my sides.

I would be interested when the tradition of hand over heart came into existence. I doubt doing symbolic things origninated with the Nazi's. I think the Romans saluted, probably the Eqyptians had symbolic gestures.

Some gestures are good and some are bad, ask coach Glenn.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

If the flag isn't a symbol of the nation than what exactly do you think it does symbolize...or is this where you revert back to the piece of fabric bit?

So in essence you have a problem with a commitment of loyalty to your country, because you disagree with some of the politics?

Pretty much. I put being a world citizen far above being an American citizen. I don't find any benefit in nationalism, and I find lots of detriment. As for the flag, again, I'm aware that the flag is a symbol of the nation, and this is useful for various visual purposes. Verbally pledging allegiance to a flag just seems really stupid when it isn't any more difficult to pledge allegiance to the actual country.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by woot

Pretty much. I put being a world citizen far above being an American citizen. I don't find any benefit in nationalism, and I find lots of detriment. As for the flag, again, I'm aware that the flag is a symbol of the nation, and this is useful for various visual purposes. Verbally pledging allegiance to a flag just seems really stupid when it isn't any more difficult to pledge allegiance to the actual country.

What the heck is a world citizen. It sounds cool enough.

I am actually myself am a citizen of the Universe. I find no benefit in involving myself in planetism.

[RockyBalboa]

I mean these are things that you really contemplate?

I could give a rats ass whether someone sings during the national anthem, puts their hand over their heart, stops walking or not while the pledge of allegiance is going on, comparing it to nazi symbols, putting all kinds of bizarro philosophical thought into......etc,,etc,,etc.

Some of you are just odd as hell.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I mean these are things that you really contemplate?

I could give a rats ass whether someone sings during the national anthem, puts their hand over their heart, stops walking or not while the pledge of allegiance is going on, comparing it to nazi symbols, putting all kinds of bizarro philosophical thought into......etc,,etc,,etc.

Some of you are just odd as hell.

You have to remember Rocky, some people on this board have an IQ over 103. Calm down. Those with an IQ over 103 have varied interests and like to discuss them.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by BYU71

You have to remember Rocky, some people on this board have an IQ over 103. Calm down. Those with an IQ over 103 have varied interests and like to discuss them.

Ahh that explains your dyslexia then. 301 >> 103.