Interrogation Techniques

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

He said he was commanded to. That much we know.

Eh, not exactly. Cali thinks he may have just come up with the idea on his own, and the Spirit just promised to look the other way while he did it.

You guys really do take some wonderful creative license with the scriptures.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I recognize your view is the orthodox view, but is that the only possibility you can see from Mike's perspective. Although I don't know what to make of his interpretation, I find it interesting and wouldn't limit it, heterodox that is, to the argumentum ad absurdum that you are endeavoring to do.

Let's make this simple? Did Nephi kill Laban because he independently felt he needed to, or because God commanded a reluctant Nephi to do so?

To believe he murdered Laban in cold-blood, without Divine sanction, would then imply that he would be subject to the discipline of an angry God. What circumstantial evidence(s) do we have of such disciplinary action?

No more visions, like being caught away in the spirit to see the entire history of mankind unfolded unto him? Like being given vision and the interpretation thereof of the Tree of Life?

No more revelation, like finding food, using the Liahona and learning how to construct a seaworth vessel?

There is NO circumstantial evidence that Nephi's dispatching of Laban was expressly against the will of God.

Please explain to me; which position is more absurd, Arch?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The practice of harming a suspects loved one is one of the oldest tools in the bag. It happens all the time. usuallly not by law enforcement (though this happens as well). But by criminal elements such as mafia and drug cartels.

Would you harm a terrorists family in order to procure information that might save lives?

Are you saying that we're bringing in 6 year old kids...family members of the detainees and raping them right in front of the detainees?

Yes or no?

And no I would not hurt a family member in order to procure information from a terrorist unless that family member was a known/proven terrorist himself.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Let's make this simple? Did Nephi kill Laban because he independently felt he needed to, or because God commanded a reluctant Nephi to do so?

To believe he murdered Laban in cold-blood, without Divine sanction, would then imply that he would be subject to the discipline of an angry God. What circumstantial evidence(s) do we have of such disciplinary action?

No more visions, like being caught away in the spirit to see the entire history of mankind unfolded unto him? Like being given vision and the interpretation thereof of the Tree of Life?

No more revelation, like finding food, using the Liahona and learning how to construct a seaworth vessel?

There is NO circumstantial evidence that Nephi's dispatching of Laban was expressly against the will of God.

Please explain to me; which position is more absurd, Arch?

You are again taking an orthodox interpretation with orthodox construction. Most LDS would agree with your approach, and not with the one I might propose.

Suppose God is not as judgmental as we like to think we are. We have the example, modern, of Alex Carrington being in the First Presidency with Brigham Young, carrying the Spirit, even though he was having an affair for ten years. There are unsubstantiated rumors that others more lofty had affairs.

I'm not certain your assumption that God withholds blessings from others if the persons through which he must act are unworthy personally. I'm also beginning to wonder if our unworthiness even for horrible acts cannot be cleansed through tremendous sufferings and the effects of the atonement through means not understood.

Again, looking at Mike's proposition requires thinking outside the orthodoxy and rejecting orthodox constructions and assumptions. Most won't agree with this exercise, which I'm okay with. It is not mean as an offense to you.

Also let's say Nephi's scared, and wonders what to do, so he thinks he hears God say, lop off the head. So he does it. Even if it's wrong, is it necessarily murder? Are there other possibilities?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You are again taking an orthodox interpretation with orthodox construction. Most LDS would agree with your approach, and not with the one I might propose.

Suppose God is not as judgmental as we like to think we are. We have the example, modern, of Alex Carrington being in the First Presidency with Brigham Young, carrying the Spirit, even though he was having an affair for ten years. There are unsubstantiated rumors that others more lofty had affairs.

I'm not certain your assumption that God withholds blessings from others if the persons through which he must act are unworthy personally. I'm also beginning to wonder if our unworthiness even for horrible acts cannot be cleansed through tremendous sufferings and the effects of the atonement through means not understood.

Again, looking at Mike's proposition requires thinking outside the orthodoxy and rejecting orthodox constructions and assumptions. Most won't agree with this exercise, which I'm okay with. It is not mean as an offense to you.

Also let's say Nephi's scared, and wonders what to do, so he thinks he hears God say, lop off the head. So he does it. Even if it's wrong, is it necessarily murder? Are there other possibilities?

Well, for contrast, we have the David/Uriah/Bathsheba story to witness the consequences of grave sin and the apparently fruitless attempts of David to be redeemed.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Well, for contrast, we have the David/Uriah/Bathsheba story to witness the consequences of grave sin and the apparently fruitless attempts of David to be redeemed.

It is an interesting contrast, isn't it. It leaves much to ponder, but I don't see that the answers are universal.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It is an interesting contrast, isn't it. It leaves much to ponder, but I don't see that the answers are universal.

Let me add one other contrast. Does anyone remember this story by Dallin H. Oaks in conference?

Fortunately, as June leaned across to open the door, she glanced through the back window and saw this fellow coming around the end of the car with a gun in his hand. Wisely, she did not unlock the door. For the next two or three minutes, which seemed like an eternity, she was a horrified spectator to an event happening at her eye level, just outside the driver’s window.

The young man pushed the gun against my stomach and said, “Give me your money.” I took the wallet out of my pocket and showed him it was empty. I wasn’t even wearing a watch I could offer him because my watchband had broken earlier that day. I offered him some coins I had in my pocket, but he growled a rejection.

“Give me your car keys,” he demanded. “They are in the car,” I told him. “Tell her to open the car,” he replied. For a moment I considered the new possibilities that would present, and then refused. He was furious. He jabbed me in the stomach with his gun and said, “Do it, or I’ll kill you.”

When I refused, the young robber repeated his demands, this time emphasizing them with an angrier tone and more motion with his gun. I remember thinking that he probably wouldn’t shoot me on purpose, but if he wasn’t careful in the way he kept jabbing that gun into my stomach, he might shoot me by mistake.

“Give me your money.” “I don’t have any.” “Give me your car keys.” “They’re in the car.” “Tell her to open the car.” “I won’t do it.” “I’ll kill you if you don’t.” “I won’t do it.”

Inside the car June couldn’t hear the conversation, but she could see the action with the gun. She agonized over what she should do. Should she unlock the door? Should she honk the horn? Should she drive away? Everything she considered seemed to have the possibility of making matters worse, so she just waited and prayed. Then a peaceful feeling came over her. She felt it would be all right.

Then, for the first time, I saw the possibility of help. From behind the robber, a city bus approached. It stopped about 20 feet away. A passenger stepped off and scurried away. The driver looked directly at me, but I could see that he was not going to offer any assistance.

While this was happening behind the young robber, out of his view, he became nervous and distracted. His gun wavered from my stomach until its barrel pointed slightly to my left. My arm was already partly raised, and with a quick motion I could seize the gun and struggle with him without the likelihood of being shot. I was taller and heavier than this young man, and at that time of my life was somewhat athletic. I had no doubt that I could prevail in a quick wrestling match if I could get his gun out of the contest.

Just as I was about to make my move, I had a unique experience. I did not see anything or hear anything, but I knew something. I knew what would happen if I grabbed that gun. We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man’s chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also understood that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.

I relaxed, and as the bus pulled away I followed an impulse to put my right hand on his shoulder and give him a lecture. June and I had some teenage children at that time, and giving lectures came naturally.

“Look here,” I said. “This isn’t right. What you’re doing just isn’t right. The next car might be a policeman, and you could get killed or sent to jail for this.”

With the gun back in my stomach, the young robber replied to my lecture by going through his demands for the third time. But this time his voice was subdued. When he offered the final threat to kill me, he didn’t sound persuasive. When I refused again, he hesitated for a moment and then stuck the gun in his pocket and ran away. June unlocked the door, and we drove off, uttering a prayer of thanks. We had experienced the kind of miraculous protection illustrated in the Bible stories I had read as a boy.

I have often pondered the significance of that event in relation to the responsibilities that came later in my life. Less than a year after that August night, I was chosen as president of Brigham Young University. Almost 14 years after that experience, I received my present calling.

I wonder if MW could be right about how this weighed on Neph even given justification by God? I know the situations are different but in some sense couldn't we say that Nephi had to bear a burden the Elder Oaks was able to avoid. Also to what extent is Elder Oaks example the more applicable to a modern church member (particularly as it relates to Rocky's original questions)?

[DJRoss]

However taking someones life is an event isolated by its expeditious nature. Extending someones suffering through torture before ending their life IMO is not acceptable.

Honestly if the MI agencies would spend more efforts in understanding the cultures that we are at odds with and developing preventive measures, than I would support efforts to eliminate quickly enemies that threaten our freedoms.

Forget interrogation, just eliminate. Once the word is out that the US takes no prisoners, many of these threats would be allayed. Not all, but many. More enemies would be inclined to end up on the US MI payroll as informants vs, risking getting caught in the cross fire.

Death is humane vs torture.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Let me add one other contrast. Does anyone remember this story by Dallin H. Oaks in conference?

I wonder if MW could be right about how this weighed on Neph even given justification by God? I know the situations are different but in some sense couldn't we say that Nephi had to bear a burden the Elder Oaks was able to avoid. Also to what extent is Elder Oaks example the more applicable to a modern church member (particularly as it relates to Rocky's original questions)?

Are you sure that was in General Conference? I don't remember that talk over the pulpit, although I know the experience actually happened.

I don't think it's unreasonable to question the burden for cold-blooded murder that Nephi may have had to carry. I also don't think we should underestimate the power of the atonement in assisting him with that burden.

But Mike's suggestion that the Laban account is evidence of a man riddled with guilt is reaching. Interesting that such guilt is not evident in Nephi's psalm in 2 Ne 4. Let's also not forget the Book of Mormon suggests that Nephi fought other battles with his brothers' family. There's a decent chance Nephi had the blood of multiple men, even kin, on his hands. He was a lion of a Godly man nonetheless.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Tex

Are you sure that was in General Conference? I don't remember that talk over the pulpit, although I know the experience actually happened.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...____&hideNav=1

I know this wasn't intended but your "I know the experience actually happened" phrase makes it sound like you were there. Perhaps you were the would be mugger? Funny, I would have never thought you lived on the south side of Chicago.