Ok, Obamaniacs (Cali)....

[Colly Wolly]

Going to bed now, but I'm happy to continue this in the morning.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

Man, I don't have all the answers, but the way I understand the gospel lately is that, above all else, I'm put on this earth with one responsibility, to prepare ME, MYSELF, for Godhood. I do that by living the way God lives, making the choices he would make, of my own free will and choice, not by being compelled. Is it impossible to fathom that even though I want an environment where I am the master of my own wealth and possessions, that I could also CHOOSE to pay tithing, to give to charity, to give someone a lift or some spare change? Are the two really mutually exclusive? I want to be the one to make those decisions. I do not want anyone else making them for me.

Or, you could Satan's route and force people to do the right thing. That's where the true growth lies. Economic prosperity, personal happiness, as history has shown, these are the results of compelling people to do what is right and redistributing their wealth for them.

You are focusing on HOW God wants us to make our decision (sans compulsion) and using that as a justification for WHAT your decision actually is (outrageously selfish).

Please don't attempt to say that when you claim the following, that you are trying to prepare yourself for Godhood. It sounds like you are attempting to prepare yourself for CEO-hood.

I don't want to share wealth equally. I want to keep what I earn and what I'm worth, and let others do the same, be it more or less than me. I want only what I can earn for myself, nothing more and nothing less. And damn anyone to hell who thinks they deserve a piece of what's mine and means to take it from me by theivery or government redistribution.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Ironically, these pleas are not really his. Nor do I think mikewaters would try to claim them as his own.

That is my whole point in this thread....how can LDS people who claim to believe in the scriptures justify this attitude of "this is all mine and nobody better take anything from me." Also, "if you are needy, it is your own fault."

Totally baffles me.

mikewaters was certainly not the first person to argue for a little compassion for the poor. But it appears that on CG, he is one of the only people willing to do it.

I think you've missed the point I'm trying to make. I see two totally separate issues. 1) Should I give a portion of what I have been blessed with to those less fortunate? Yes of course, and I do. and 2) Does the government have the right to redistribute my wealth and take my choice out of the equation? For me, in many cases, it's no.

Like I said before, I don't have the right to steal, no matter how good my motivations are. I cannot delegate that right to the government to do it for me. Hence my belief, that care for the poor and needy should properly be a private, not public, enterprise.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Venkman

I think you've missed the point I'm trying to make. I see two totally separate issues. 1) Should I give a portion of what I have been blessed with to those less fortunate? Yes of course, and I do. and 2) Does the government have the right to redistribute my wealth and take my choice out of the equation? For me, in many cases, it's no.

Like I said before, I don't have the right to steal, no matter how good my motivations are. I cannot delegate that right to the government to do it for me. Hence my belief, that care for the poor and needy should properly be a private, not public, enterprise.

I did see you point. I just respectfully disagree but I have no beef with you.

I do find shocking these attempts to blame the government for our own selfishness.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

You are focusing on HOW God wants us to make our decision (sans compulsion) and using that as a justification for WHAT your decision actually is (outrageously selfish).

Please don't attempt to say that when you claim the following, that you are trying to prepare yourself for Godhood. It sounds like you are attempting to prepare yourself for CEO-hood.

My personal paradigm as it relates to selfishness is different from yours my man. My selfishness is glorious.

I can't wait for when God let us all, saints and sinners alike, into heaven. To hell with what we deserve, they way we've lived, the choices we've made. Everyone should be equal and enjoy the same blessing and happiness, regardless of who we've become through our own choices.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This debate is useless.

Obama's speech was clearly one of general political rhetoric, not specific policy.

Those that are nitpicking are just annoyed that he gave a nice speech and that everyone cheered loudly for him.

People should be less concerned with Obama's speech and more concerned (and honest) about why our current sitting President doesn't enjoy anywhere near that sort of respect, love, or even passing interest abroad.

I was happy to see crowds of pro-US foreigners. I think Obama did a nice job with his speech. I doubt very highly that his speech will save the world and I doubt even more that it was a masked attempt to advocate a shift from capitalism. Attemps to deconstruct the speech are pointless. Wait until he gives a SOTU address and then we can talk.

And for those anti-socialists, again I ask you....how did you enjoy those government subsidized student loans?

On a side note, and I mean this honestly....what the heck is McCain doing right now? Where is he? Why is he not doing high profile things to up his visibility?

Kind of difficult for McCain to have any kind of attention thrown his way when everyone in the media is following Obama like a puppy.

His speech was nothing but rhetorical chest thumping on his part.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

The entire progressive tax system is one that advocates a more even distribution of wealth. The existence of welfare is as well, among many other aspects of our civilization. To take the leap that any advocacy for a more even distribution of wealth equates to Marxism is laughable.

Would you feel better if I called him Robin Hood?

Take from the productive and give to the slothful. That's the liberal way.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

The comment about "forging trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth" scares the living shit out of me, and I think most of us here can read this for what it is.

Well, a few of us here, anyway.

Some are too blinded by the charismatic words to see the dung that is actually coming out.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

My personal paradigm as it relates to selfishness is different from yours my man. My selfishness is glorious.

I can't wait for when God let us all, saints and sinners alike, into heaven. To hell with what we deserve, they way we've lived, the choices we've made. Everyone should be equal and enjoy the same blessing and happiness, regardless of who we've become through our own choices.

Reductio ad absurdum is usually a white flag of surrender.

But again, what skin off your back would it be if He DID let everyone in?

Now you sound like that bad Church Prodigal Son movie..."BUT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN THE GOOD GUY!"

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Reductio ad absurdum is usually a white flag of surrender.

But again, what skin off your back would it be if He DID let everyone in?

Now you sound like that bad Church Prodigal Son movie..."BUT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN THE GOOD GUY!"

"What does that mean, YOU'VE been the good guy?"