Who is the Great American Songwriter?

[8ballrollin]

Originally Posted by YOhio

There can be no Great American Songwriter. Most of the songwriters mentioned thus far have been middle-aged white guys from the Eastern US. Few of us here would recognize someone like Tupac as a Great American Songwriter, but we're all white guys. There is no artist that sufficiently spans the US cultural boundary to lay claim to Great American Songwriter.

Hey now, I threw out Robinson and Chuck D.

Motown is as American as anything. It influenced both Dylan and the Beatles. Robinson has literally thousands of songs to his credit.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Not to bash on Johnny Cash, but you don't strengthen your argument by criticizing the vocals of Dylan and Springsteen. Johnny Cash was a pretty crappy singer himself.

Actually Cashs voice had a lot more depth to it. None of them are opera singers, but in terms of emotional depth...neither of them compare to Cash.

Dylan is an abysmal singer. The guy simply cannot sing. He can recite words, but it's not singing.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Actually Cashs voice had a lot more depth to it. None of them are opera singers, but in terms of emotional depth...neither of them compare to Cash.

Dylan is an abysmal singer. The guy simply cannot sing. He can recite words, but it's not singing.

Don't bash Dylan. The man is a legend, and just because you personally can't figure out what he's singing about, and have not developed a love for his somewhat unusual voice does not mean he mean that he's not great. It just means that you lack the ability to recognize and appreciate his talents.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Requiem

I take it you mean in addition to Eliza R. Snow?

I make a distinction between songwriters and composers. Great American songwriters would include Irving Berlin, Gershwin, Frederick Loewe, Dylan, Simon, Wilson and Springsteen.

In my humble opinion, Creekster is right on - Copeland is far and away the greatest American composer.

Copeland is great. John Williams is also quite impressive. How about Johnny Mercer, Tom Paxton or Cole Porter?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Don't bash Dylan. The man is a legend, and just because you personally can't figure out what he's singing about, and have not developed a love for his somewhat unusual voice does not mean he mean that he's not great. It just means that you lack the ability to recognize and appreciate his talents.

lol...relax BDB...I understand you have a Dylan fetish and that's fine, but I'll offer my opinions on Dylan if I feel like it and if you don't like it..simply because you adore him, then that's your problem.

Not liking a person's style doesn't equate to a lack of understanding about his contributions or lyrical mastery. It would behoove you to understand the difference. Eminem is a lyrical master,,,but that doesn't mean you have to like him or understand him. He can't sing either.

Do I understand his (Dylan) stuff? Not really. Does that mean he sucks? No. Do I recognize his contributions? Absolutely I do. He's a lyrical genius...and I recognize that,,,even if it doesn't make sense to me,,,but it doesn't mean that he's a great singer. He's a terrible singer.

I'm simply making a point that the man cannot sing. He can recite words yes....he can recite musical poetry and has a very unique, if not bizarre musical style,,but....yes.. he cannot sing worth a damn.

But again,,that doesn't mean I don't recognize his wealth of contributions and impressions on the industry.

A person doesn't have to be a fan to understand an artists contributions.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

lol...relax BDB...I understand you have a Dylan fetish and that's fine, but I'll offer my opinions on Dylan if I feel like it and if you don't like it..simply because you adore him, then that's your problem.

Not liking a person's style doesn't equate to a lack of understanding about his contributions or lyrical mastery. It would behoove you to understand the difference. Eminem is a lyrical master,,,but that doesn't mean you have to like him or understand him. He can't sing either.

Do I understand his (Dylan) stuff? Not really. Does that mean he sucks? No. Do I recognize his contributions? Absolutely I do. He's a lyrical genius...and I recognize that,,,even if it doesn't make sense to me,,,but it doesn't mean that he's a great singer. He's a terrible singer.

I'm simply making a point that the man cannot sing. He can recite words yes....he can recite musical poetry and has a very unique, if not bizarre musical style,,but....yes.. he cannot sing worth a damn.

But again,,that doesn't mean I don't recognize his wealth of contributions and impressions on the industry.

A person doesn't have to be a fan to understand an artists contributions.

I like his voice, and it's singing...not reciting words.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Having thought about it all night I realized that we have forgotten one of the best selling recording artists of the last 10 years. The Hoff.

I am nto sure which is more frightening: that you thought about this all night or that, after having done so, all you came up with was The Hoff.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I like his voice, and it's singing...not reciting words.

I probably should stay out of the BDB/Rocky dylan spat, but I gotta go with Rocky on this. DYlan is a great lyricist, a good tunesmith, and a fabulous communicator, but he is a pretty lousy singer. Now you may overlook the singing deficiency becasue of how well he communnicates, but I don't see how you can deny that by any objective standard he is a pretty lousy singer.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I like his voice, and it's singing...not reciting words.

That's fine. It's well within your right to like crappy singing.

Neither of the AC/DC lead singers are good singers, but it fits their musical style...and I like them too, so I understand where you're coming from.

Tell you what...I'll start listening to more Dylan. I'm open to seeing if I can change my opinion on him. I've been wrong many times before.

[creekster]

I think some other good names have been raised. Cole Porter is a rather glaring oversight, IMO and I am glad CC pointed him out. As to the two lists presented by Requiem, I would agree with them but would plce Cole Porter in Paul Simon's place.

James Taylor? Sweet Baby James has a lovely voice, and he soothes very well, but his best stuff isn't particualrly important and when he tries to be important it hasn't been very good.

Billy Joel is another good writer. He tells a pretty good story and I always felt he should have been writing for Broadway. He just doens't quite make the top end cut, IMO.

Y-Ohi raises a good point. Given the diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds we find in this country can we have a single American Songwriter? Maybe not. I, for one, love the blues. There is nothing like a 12 bar perfromed with soul and emotion. Moreover, we havent' even talked about jazz. How can we discuss greta american songwirters and not mention Monk or Ellington or other jazz greats? In fact, one might argue that Jazz is the only truly original form of music born in this country and so is the only category that deserves to be considered when talking abotu a great American songwriter. So Y-Ohi's point has some merit.

Limiting the discussion to Great American Songwriters from the Perspective of a Middle Class White Guy Raised After WWII, I still stick with Guthrie, Springsteen or Dylan. The real merit of this thread is that we have identified some great wirters and composers to listen to.

Oh, btw, I have read some of Eminem's lyrics and I do nto see him as a great lyrcist, but I suppose that could be the bias of age talking.