"Worthiness"...

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

Stop lying, santos. It makes you unworthy.



Yes, you're just licking your chops, aren't ya!

Yes, at least I'll admit lying makes me unworthy though.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Tex

Stop lying, santos. It makes you unworthy.



Yes, you're just licking your chops, aren't ya!

Quite frankly, yes.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yes, at least I'll admit lying makes me unworthy though.

Unworthy for what?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Tex

Unworthy for what?

IMHO lying, makes you unworthy for about anything. For sure trust. I would far rather hang out with a drinker than a liar.

[pelagius]

Clearly, coffee, tea, and adult beverages are a litmus test. It is certainly fair to argue that in the grand scheme of things that observance of these things is not that important. I think there is some truth to that argument. On the other hand, observance of these prohibitions has a lot to do with boundary maintenance as a people ("tribe"). It is a way to set ourselves apart that is costly but not so costly that it causes major problems for the church (which was the case for 19th century identity markers). So yes, honesty is probably a more important quality for day to day interaction with someone, but it is a inferior signal in terms of group identity. It doesn't strike me as unreasonable for the leadership to require that people signal in this way if they want to fully participant in the church.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Clearly, coffee, tea, and adult beverages are a litmus test. It is certainly fair to argue that in the grand scheme of things that observance of these things is not that important. I think there is some truth to that argument. On the other hand, observance of these prohibitions has a lot to do with boundary maintenance as a people ("tribe"). It is a way to set ourselves apart that is costly but not so costly that it causes major problems for the church (which was the case for 19th century identity markers). So yes, honesty is probably a more important quality for day to day interaction with someone, but it is a inferior signal in terms of group identity. It doesn't strike me as unreasonable for the leadership to require that people signal in this way if they want to fully participant in the church.

I agree that to use the term "worthy member", the WOW must be obeyed. The honesty thing not so much because it isn't as black and white. One guys dishonesty is another guys spin. How do you spin knocking down a cool one, you can't.

However, when I use the term worthy or moral in my dealings with others, the WOW is not part of the equation. It used to be. When I was a kid I just figured all non WOW obeyers were slime balls. It was somewhat of a shock to find wonderful people who imbibe and even smoke.

In my dealings with others, honesty is far more important than the WOW.

[Tex]

Per my question to santos, I think we're confusing terms again.

Just as "worthy" != sinless, "worthy" doesn't necessarily mean "member in good standing" either. Indeed, I would say that in most contexts in which the term is used, it's as a rhetorical device in the same way one would say "keep the commandments."

Now if we're going to discuss worthy for a specific thing--as in worthy to enter the temple, or worthy to perform an ordinance--then there are generally some prescribed conditions for being worthy. It's no more perfect a measurement of true worthiness then an SAT score measures a person's intelligence, but until mortal man can peer into one another's soul, it's the best we have.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by BYU71

How do you spin knocking down a cool one, you can't.

Not trying to start any sort of debate here, this is all just my opinion of course, but maybe spin it by reading D&C 89 verses 5 and 17:

5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Beer is a mild drink made of barley, in fact in my opinion beer is probably exactly what was referred to in that verse. Wine, whiskey, vodka, etc., are strong drinks, and beer is a mild drink. Anyone who has tasted wine/whiskey/vodka and beer will tell you the same thing, that beer is definitely mild compared to the others.

Reading the section "The Word of Wisdom - From Principle to Requirement" at this link also gives background on how the WOW has been changed by the brethren:

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/doc...&CISOSHOW=6510

Based on that reading it's not a stretch to conclude that changes in the WOW since JS's original revelation were simply based on how certain brethen felt about it at the time rather than through revelation.

Anyway, maybe you can't spin knocking down a cool one every once in awhile, but some might.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by scottie

Not trying to start any sort of debate here, this is all just my opinion of course, but maybe spin it by reading D&C 89 verses 5 and 17:

5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Beer is a mild drink made of barley, in fact in my opinion beer is probably exactly what was referred to in that verse. Wine, whiskey, vodka, etc., are strong drinks, and beer is a mild drink. Anyone who has tasted wine/whiskey/vodka and beer will tell you the same thing, that beer is definitely mild compared to the others.

Reading the section "The Word of Wisdom - From Principle to Requirement" at this link also gives background on how the WOW has been changed by the brethren:

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/doc...&CISOSHOW=6510

Based on that reading it's not a stretch to conclude that changes in the WOW since JS's original revelation were simply based on how certain brethen felt about it at the time rather than through revelation.

Anyway, maybe you can't spin knocking down a cool one every once in awhile, but some might.

I could actually justify in my own mind (spin) knocking down a cool one before I could lieing or cheating in a business dealing. Sadly though I think there are a lot of "members" who can easily answer the honesty question through rationalization that couldn't sipping a cool one. In my mind the WOW deal has taken too much of the spotlight in determing how good a member is.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by BYU71

In my mind the WOW deal has taken to much of the spotlight in determing how good a member is.

Amen.