02-28-2008, 05:58 AM | #21 |
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Good posts, Minn stat. Stanley Kurtz has quite a few articles on the subject in NRO raising the same argument. I think it's hilarious though how people mischaracterize the anti-gay marriage folks as saying gay marriage will instantaneously destroy your marriage and society will crumble overnight.
Not it at all. As you pointed out, it's just a further weakening of the institution of marriage from a standpoint of it's role in bringing up the next generation. (Which as far as society as a whole is concerned is THE purpose of marriage, IMO). The question is whether or not gay marriage will weaken the relationship between marriage and children? If not, no worries. If yes, it will bring about more children being raised in single parent households, which I don't think there is any doubt would result in more societal problems. There's enough work out there to suggest a possible correlation. Not necessarily causation, but enough to take the issue seriously. We're talking the macro level here people, not your particular marriage. At least YOhio recognizes the legitimacy of the argument (even if he doesn't totally buy it) instead of dismissing it as homophobic ramblings.
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02-28-2008, 06:06 AM | #22 | |
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But what about the argument that the states have to honor contracts made in other states? I know Clinton signed the DOMA but that could be declared unconstitutional. I think it's only a matter of time before this is challenged. And if the SCOTUS comes down on their side then it's "the law of the land", just like abortion. Then it is forced on Utah and Alabama. I mean, I believe in federalism, but I'm not sure the courts always do.
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02-28-2008, 06:22 AM | #23 | |
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02-28-2008, 06:38 AM | #24 | |
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02-28-2008, 06:50 AM | #25 | |
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How else might a state with no gay marriage be forced to "recognize" gay marriage? Taxes? No marriage tax break for gay couples in Utah. Fine.
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02-28-2008, 01:25 PM | #26 | |
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This disassociation has been taking place without gay marriage being implemented. Even if gay marriage is not implemented, it may well continue to take place. But it is hard to see how implementing gay marriage doesn't hasten this disassociation. |
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02-28-2008, 01:35 PM | #27 | |
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Note that many, if not most, of those against gay marriage are fine with allowing them a set of legal rights that are pretty much equivalent to marriage. Civil unions, or whatever you call them. If they are homophobes, why would they be for that? They recognize the legitimacy of the relationships of two men (or two women), and how can we stand for that? Because they aren't homophobes. But allowing civil unions gives them the rights, while still preserving the unique and important connection of marriage and parenting. |
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02-28-2008, 02:39 PM | #28 |
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I'm still waiting for a convincing argument of how it weakens marriage.
Are you arguing that fewer heterosexuals will be willing to get married if gays can marry? Conservatives say it will weaken marriage, as if it is obvious, and never explain HOW it will weaken marriage. |
02-28-2008, 02:58 PM | #29 | |
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Heterosexual marriages are already ending in divorce at record high numbers. The single parent/divorce phenomenon is something that heterosexuals coined and minted ages ago. Nobody does divorce, adultery, and child abuse better than heterosexuals. Also, i would venture to guess that somewhere in the lines of about 100% of homosexuals were reared as children in heterosexual households. Are you saying that allowing gays to marry and adopt children will somehow skew those numbers in the negative? How is that even mathematically possible given the ratio of hetero to homosexual in this country? Can't homosexuals raise children to be loving, law abiding, etc? Also, gays can already adopt children and be parents to them. The argument that gay marriage will have a negative impact on child rearing is another scaremongering tactic.
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02-28-2008, 03:11 PM | #30 | |
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I am close with only 2 gay people. I have met some of their friends who are gay, but am not close with them. In talking to both of my good friends, they both have the same concern....."why wont my country allow me to be married, just like everyone else?" They have no public political agenda. They have no interest in forcing their lifestyle on me. One of them is LDS and loves the Gospel. They don't go to Gay Pride parades. They don't have AIDS or HIV. They both want to experience parenthood and child-rearing, so they are very interested in adoption. Basically, these are just normal, good people, productive members of society, law abiding, and loving folks. It is next to impossible for me to respond to my close friends, keep a straight face, and say, "well, i am just not convinced you need to be married. Let's wait and see....meantime, I will pat you patronizingly on the head and pretend like I really consider you my equal and that you merit the same opportunities as everyone else. By the way, legally you can marry a woman, so stop complaining." Y, I am not saying you are being patronizing, I am just stating how it makes me feel to express those sentiments to my two friends. It is actually almost embarrassing because I cant come up with any cogent argument as to why they cant get married...at least not without bringing up arguments that assume that most or all homosexuals are pedophiles or promiscuous sex addicts. Like you, I agree it is a difficult issue and very confusing at time. While your approach is "wait and see," I guess mine is "err on the side of civil rights." We tried the "wait and see" approach with blacks. It took 100 years to err on the side of civil rights. Fortunately, after the Civil Right Act, society did not come to an end because blacks all of a sudden could sit at the front of the bus and drink out of my drinking fountain. PS You are good at summarizing stuff.
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