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Old 08-16-2016, 08:24 PM   #11
MikeWaters
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The essays on controversial topics that are on the web, most released with no fanfare except for mention from SLTrib and bloggers and such....they indicate at some level that a certain amount of "moderateness" is accurate and necessary for this church to go forward. What has not happened is these topics finding their way into general conference and local church proceedings. At least not from what I have observed.

But it is an indication that over the years, moderate positions will triumph over the black/white doctrinal hardliners who have previously taken up indefensible positions and by doing so have caused harm to the church. For which they take no public responsibility (for the most part).
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:35 AM   #12
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I have lost hope that change will be made in time to save Mormonism's soul. Or it may wander and dwindle before it finds itself again.

Dissent will not be tolerated and will continue to be treated as medieval Catholicism treated dissent.

BYU's leaders have no power and the fact that rapegate has no new policies shouts to the heavens that the old guard still can't understand why the rest of the world rejects autocratic management. The inner circles of Church management must be confounded.

Proposition 8 sounded the deathknell on the advance of Mormonism. The subtle changes of small advances of moderate Mormon women may come too late.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:14 PM   #13
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I have lost hope that change will be made in time to save Mormonism's soul. Or it may wander and dwindle before it finds itself again.

Dissent will not be tolerated and will continue to be treated as medieval Catholicism treated dissent.

BYU's leaders have no power and the fact that rapegate has no new policies shouts to the heavens that the old guard still can't understand why the rest of the world rejects autocratic management. The inner circles of Church management must be confounded.

Proposition 8 sounded the deathknell on the advance of Mormonism. The subtle changes of small advances of moderate Mormon women may come too late.
I've never understood this notion of reforming a religion. Maybe because I just left. But it seems to me much like trying to "reform" a person's sexual preference. Being society's most conservative element, laying down the law, resisting progress, a magic world view that stands in opposition to science seem fundamental to what religion is. It's yet to be seen whether a religion can be "reformed" and survive. The ones that have moved overtly to the left are dying. As I type this I realize that the LDS Church's rejection of polygamy was a reform, but that was so outside of even the fringes.

The religion that I have seen most at peace with itself and in an easy relation with secularism was Italian Catholicism, typified by this beautiful inlaid artwork in the Siena Cathedral depicting Romulus and Remus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siena_..._tango7174.jpg

A lovely and frank acknowledgment of religion's essentially mythological roots and quality and debt to antiquity.
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:33 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by MikeWaters View Post
The essays on controversial topics that are on the web, most released with no fanfare except for mention from SLTrib and bloggers and such....they indicate at some level that a certain amount of "moderateness" is accurate and necessary for this church to go forward. What has not happened is these topics finding their way into general conference and local church proceedings. At least not from what I have observed.

But it is an indication that over the years, moderate positions will triumph over the black/white doctrinal hardliners who have previously taken up indefensible positions and by doing so have caused harm to the church. For which they take no public responsibility (for the most part).
The change on blacks and the priesthood is the obvious example of how reform can happen. I believe most orthodox Mormon's will now bristle and disavow racist statements by early church leaders.

The "infallibility of church leaders" position seems to be softening as well which will allow for evolution in official church positions over time.
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:07 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
I've never understood this notion of reforming a religion. Maybe because I just left. But it seems to me much like trying to "reform" a person's sexual preference. Being society's most conservative element, laying down the law, resisting progress, a magic world view that stands in opposition to science seem fundamental to what religion is. It's yet to be seen whether a religion can be "reformed" and survive. The ones that have moved overtly to the left are dying. As I type this I realize that the LDS Church's rejection of polygamy was a reform, but that was so outside of even the fringes.

The religion that I have seen most at peace with itself and in an easy relation with secularism was Italian Catholicism, typified by this beautiful inlaid artwork in the Siena Cathedral depicting Romulus and Remus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siena_..._tango7174.jpg

A lovely and frank acknowledgment of religion's essentially mythological roots and quality and debt to antiquity.

The best part of Mormonism was that man has divine origins and each individual may have contact with the divinity, that relationships are important and lasting. That has been supplanted by the bureaucratic Church. That is something the Catholic Church has never had.

Mormonism, unfortunately, has never inspired great works of art. Instead it is a stoic work of conservatism, asceticism and denial.

Of course, most religious movements are inspired by one charismatic leader followed by the damn bureaucrats.
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:08 PM   #16
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The change on blacks and the priesthood is the obvious example of how reform can happen. I believe most orthodox Mormon's will now bristle and disavow racist statements by early church leaders.

The "infallibility of church leaders" position seems to be softening as well which will allow for evolution in official church positions over time.
But there were many who went kicking and screaming. If gays were somehow incorporated into LDS theology, you'd see some kicking and screaming. The rule of obedience would change the opinions of many.
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Old 08-18-2016, 04:28 PM   #17
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there would be a substantial proportion of Mormons, who wouldn't describe themselves as liberal or moderates who would be relieved, just by virtue of the fact that they are sick of the church as being defined by gay rights issues.
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Old 08-18-2016, 04:59 PM   #18
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there would be a substantial proportion of Mormons, who wouldn't describe themselves as liberal or moderates who would be relieved, just by virtue of the fact that they are sick of the church as being defined by gay rights issues.
Probably so. There are also members who like the position because they don't like gays.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:17 PM   #19
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Probably so. There are also members who like the position because they don't like gays.
I agree.

There are still many members who have trouble accepting the idea that the ban on blacks wasn't straight from the mouth of God.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:42 PM   #20
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I agree.

There are still many members who have trouble accepting the idea that the ban on blacks wasn't straight from the mouth of God.
There are two changes, when and if they come, which will have members rocking and doubting, women receiving the priesthood and acceptance of gays.

If those two ever happen, you will see a lot of formerly rigid devotees doubting their testimonies.

They changed the policy for former members apparently under the Honor Code.

http://www.ldsliving.com/BYU-Changes...nation/s/82901

A small, infinitesimally minute measure of improvement.
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