I was sort of baffled by the black guy that quoted John Taylor

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

If you take the stance of a mistaken policy was carried through the church through 11 prophets how then do you square that with the belief that a prophet cannot lead the church astray?

It was either God's intent to deny blacks the priesthood until SWK or prophets can indeed lead the church very far astray.

Given what I know of Church history, the latter seems the most rational choice to me.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by All-American

Most of this is a repost, but it has a lot to do with the present topic of discussion.

Yes, racism existed among the leaders of the church, and those racist tendencies resulted in the priesthood ban. Even so, I believe it would be incorrect to place the blame entirely upon the leaders of the church. There is at least one instance where a church leader, namely David O. McKay, would have changed the ban if he had felt he had permission to do so. President McKay also used the word "policy", not "doctrine", to describe the ban.

The following is from his recent biography, as told by architect Richard Jackson:



It seems clear to me that President McKay would have changed the ban had he felt he could do so. That says to me that the problem lied not only in the leadership, but also the membership of the church. From top to bottom, the church was not ready to give up its racist tendencies.

All-American, you are popping the Blame the Prophets First bubble on Cougarguard, and I demand you stop. McKay, just like those who preceded him, was nothing but a racist womanizer who lucked into the top job, and when he died, it was divine retribution for his wicked tenure.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

Most of this is a repost, but it has a lot to do with the present topic of discussion.

Yes, racism existed among the leaders of the church, and those racist tendencies resulted in the priesthood ban. Even so, I believe it would be incorrect to place the blame entirely upon the leaders of the church. There is at least one instance where a church leader, namely David O. McKay, would have changed the ban if he had felt he had permission to do so. President McKay also used the word "policy", not "doctrine", to describe the ban.

The following is from his recent biography, as told by architect Richard Jackson:



It seems clear to me that President McKay would have changed the ban had he felt he could do so. That says to me that the problem lied not only in the leadership, but also the membership of the church. From top to bottom, the church was not ready to give up its racist tendencies.

I see nothing from the quote you provided how you concluded what you did in your final paragraph.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

All-American, you are popping the Blame the Prophets First bubble on Cougarguard, and I demand you stop. McKay, just like those who preceded him, was nothing but a racist womanizer who lucked into the top job, and when he died, it was divine retribution for his wicked tenure.

Even as a caricature, that's not a fair representation of the discussion here.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I see nothing from the quote you provided how you concluded what you did in your final paragraph.

David O. McKay wanted to end the ban. He didn't, because felt that he could not. Ergo, the problem was not in him alone. If the problem is not in the prophet, where is it? With other leaders? Perhaps, but even Bruce R. McKonkie could be prevailed upon to publicly change his stance on the priesthood ban-- surely others could have as well.

If the problem is not in the leadership, then, it must be in the rank and file. It seems to me that if the members would have been ready to accept the change, it would have happened earlier than it did. That is simply my extrapolation on the limited data to which I have been exposed.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

David O. McKay wanted to end the ban. He didn't, because felt that he could not. Ergo, the problem was not in him alone. If the problem is not in the prophet, where is it? With other leaders? Perhaps, but even Bruce R. McKonkie could be prevailed upon to publicly change his stance on the priesthood ban-- surely others could have as well.

If the problem is not in the leadership, then, it must be in the rank and file. It seems to me that if the members would have been ready to accept the change, it would have happened earlier than it did. That is simply my extrapolation on the limited data to which I have been exposed.

All I got out of the quote was that God told David O. McKay that it wasn't time yet. To extrapolate as to the reason(s) beyond that is pure conjecture, as Pres. McKay didn't offer anything beyond 'because I said so' from God.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

All I got out of the quote was that God told David O. McKay that it wasn't time yet. To extrapolate as to the reason(s) beyond that is pure conjecture, as Pres. McKay didn't offer anything beyond 'because I said so' from God.

Pure conjecture it is, indeed. I don't mean to imply that it is anything otherwise.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

All I got out of the quote was that God told David O. McKay that it wasn't time yet. To extrapolate as to the reason(s) beyond that is pure conjecture, as Pres. McKay didn't offer anything beyond 'because I said so' from God.

I agree with Indy, it is not possible that the ban had anything to do with anyone in the church being racist. Since everything always goes the way that God intends it to, and since there is no precedent for God witholding blessings or higher laws based on the hard heartedness of His people, we can only assume that the timing of the ban being lifted is exactly according to His plans.

See also the extermination of the Nephites.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I agree with Indy, it is not possible that the ban had anything to do with anyone in the church being racist. Since everything always goes the way that God intends it to, and since there is no precedent for God witholding blessings or higher laws based on the hard heartedness of His people, we can only assume that the timing of the ban being lifted is exactly according to His plans.

See also the extermination of the Nephites.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

If you take the stance of a mistaken policy was carried through the church through 11 prophets how then do you square that with the belief that a prophet cannot lead the church astray?

It was either God's intent to deny blacks the priesthood until SWK or prophets can indeed lead the church very far astray.

I think I've covered this ad nauseum.