The church has spoken...

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Signed,
Board of Education, Topeka, KS

Sorry for the repeat, Tex, but I'm sort of tired of the same old lame argument.

The Majority has decided!

Signed,

Pontius Pilate

*assenting opinions written by Tex and Rick-o-Matic

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

Just something to think about: what percentage of the population of California is gay? what percentage of the population voted against Prop 8? I think the support by non-gays for gays is significant.

Also, you're not really making an argument in favor of the tyranny of the majority, are you? Many of us think we have a duty to protect the rights of the minority.

The check on majority tyranny is a judiciary who upholds individuals rights that are articulated in a constitution. This works magnificently at that national level because the individual rights are so well are articulated and the constitution so difficult to amend. The real mischief in California is that there is essentially nothing internally to check majority tyranny because the constitution is so easily amended. Fortunately the federal constitution has set the floor.

How long will it be before SCOTUS tells majorities all around the country that gays are a suspect class and strict scrutiny requires prop 8 and similar measures to be struck down? In our lifetimes, I have not the least doubt.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

Why would anybody choose to be gay? We heterosexuals have no first-hand knowledge of this, but most gay people say they were always gay. And I believe them because choosing to be gay makes no sense. There are so many faithful LDS kids who want to be heterosexuals in order to fulfill all of their hopes and dreams and stay in the Church, but they ARE homosexual. They didn't choose it and they would choose to be hetero if at all possible.

I think the experience of most Bishops is that if they previously thought that being gay was a "lifestyle choice", after members who are gay tell them about their story, they change their mind. They realize that being gay is the last thing these members would ever choose.

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Oh, I am not denying that it was probably a primary factor. I just don't believe it is a legitimate or persuasive reason to deny them marriage rights.

Aha... Here we have the crux of the issue. This is just plain ignorance.

And yes, you would do well to read up on the church's latest position. They have backed away from the "gay by choice" line of thinking.

Ok, I went to the Church's website and this is what I found:

"PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’

"ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.

"ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important."

According to the above comments, then it appears to me that the church has no position. Whether that is a change from a prior stance, I do not know. And it really should not matter, if you are of the belief that as individual Church members we should make our own choices and not blindly follow dictates from SLC. Given the Church's current position, then I believe it would be difficult for anyone to label me a sheep...My position is that being gay is a lifestyle choice. A choice that is influenced by many factors that may include standards, environment, etc...My position has come about as a result of the experiences I have had in my life. What a wonderful thing to excercise free agency and have the ability to think for myself and make decisions. You may disagree with my position, but, you would be hard pressed to label me an ingnoramus based on the limited posts I have made in this forum. I am not an uneducated moron with limited life experiences. I am not a bigot or intolerant, I just happen to agree with supporters of prop 8. Tuesday's victory was not hollow, it was a victory for those of us that believe that marriage is ordained of God and is to be only between a man and a woman.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I wonder how Tex and cougarobgon rationalize suicides by devout LDS gays?

Nothing funny about this comment. Especially if you had to personally deal with such a trajedy and I did that in my ward.

No comment from me and this is not a cop out. Ask another question and I will gladly engage you in the discussion.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

Nothing funny about this comment. Especially if you had to personally deal with such a trajedy and I did that in my ward.

No comment from me and this is not a cop out. Ask another question and I will gladly engage you in the discussion.

Why on earth would you think I find it funny?

Awkward or not, it goes right to the core of your "being gay is a choice" mindset.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Why on earth would you think I find it funny?

Awkward or not, it goes right to the core of your "being gay is a choice" mindset.

Maybe the use of the word "funny" was inappropriate...but, I pictured you with a smile on your face playing "gotcha"...I am bit slower than most of you on this board so please elaborate on your "Awkward or not, it goes right to the core of your "being gay is a choice" mindset" comment. What is the correlation you are attempting to make between choosing to be gay and an lds gay kid choosing to be gay and choosing to commit suicide? Regardless of how you feel about this issue, anyone gay or not committing suicide would be a trajedy and I do not wish that on anyone.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

Maybe the use of the word "funny" was inappropriate...but, I pictured you with a smile on your face playing "gotcha"...I am bit slower than most of you on this board so please elaborate on your "Awkward or not, it goes right to the core of your "being gay is a choice" mindset" comment. What is the correlation you are attempting to make between choosing to be gay and an lds gay kid choosing to be gay and choosing to commit suicide? Regardless of how you feel about this issue, anyone gay or not committing suicide would be a trajedy and I do not wish that on anyone.

in a nutshell:

If gay were a choice (someone decides to live a gay lifestyle)....then why would they then commit suicide? Why not simply choose to be straight and live happily ever after?

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

Ok, I went to the Church's website and this is what I found:

"PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’

"ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.

"ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important."

According to the above comments, then it appears to me that the church has no position. Whether that is a change from a prior stance, I do not know. And it really should not matter, if you are of the belief that as individual Church members we should make our own choices and not blindly follow dictates from SLC. Given the Church's current position, then I believe it would be difficult for anyone to label me a sheep...My position is that being gay is a lifestyle choice. A choice that is influenced by many factors that may include standards, environment, etc...My position has come about as a result of the experiences I have had in my life. What a wonderful thing to excercise free agency and have the ability to think for myself and make decisions. You may disagree with my position, but, you would be hard pressed to label me an ingnoramus based on the limited posts I have made in this forum. I am not an uneducated moron with limited life experiences. I am not a bigot or intolerant, I just happen to agree with supporters of prop 8. Tuesday's victory was not hollow, it was a victory for those of us that believe that marriage is ordained of God and is to be only between a man and a woman.

bullshit. by saying that same gender attraction is "behavior" they are, in my opinion, implying that it is nurture. i am sick of passive aggressive responses from the church on this issue.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

in a nutshell:

If gay were a choice (someone decides to live a gay lifestyle)....then why would they then commit suicide? Why not simply choose to be straight and live happily ever after?

exactly. the church is saying "easy said, easy done" when in reality the only thing easy is saying it... doing it is damn near impossible in so many situations.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

in a nutshell:

If gay were a choice (someone decides to live a gay lifestyle)....then why would they then commit suicide? Why not simply choose to be straight and live happily ever after?

I don't know.

All I know is that people that at one time have lived a gay lifestyles have chosen to be straight and are currenltly living very happily with their spouses and children.